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The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Tag: Harmony - Recent Posts http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Tag: Harmony - Recent Posts en Tue, 26 Jul 2016 00:40:34 +0000 Paul Wegmann on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-13936
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Tue, 27 Jan 2015 22:09:47 +0000
Paul Wegmann 13936@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hi guys! Is incredible how you are capable of seeing just 1 thing from many points of view! I'm new in this forum and in 20 minutes I learned a lot! thank you!</p> <p>Now my 20 cents:</p> <p>I think is interesting to see that chord as someone told us up there, like a set of intervals. You can see this structure like generic intervals that will change their quality (major, minor) depending on the point of the scale are built (3rd-4th-2nd). If we think in the C major scale and build it from F (the next up) we have: F-A-D-E (no subliminal content hehe) and from G we have G-B-E-F, and so on. As you can see, we have minor and major thirds, we will have augmented and perfect fourths, and major or minor seconds, depending of the root. You can use it through any scale, melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished scale, augmented scale etc etc. </p>
acrueldragonegg on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-11188
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Mon, 22 Apr 2013 02:58:00 +0000
acrueldragonegg 11188@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Do you guys think he's using these concepts here (at 4:55)? <a href="http://youtu.be/5Eg-0Ot5-ko?t=4m55s" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/5Eg-0Ot5-ko?t=4m55s</a></p> <p>Sounds like it to me. Sounds amazing. A whole new ethereal level of harmony =D</p> <p>@brandoncoleman35 "A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody" is an AMAZING book. My teacher (who is absolutely phenomenal) let me borrow it. Definitely recommended. </p>
Quintricacy on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7071
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Thu, 05 Apr 2012 07:04:32 +0000
Quintricacy 7071@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I see that Chord as being an aeolian voicing from the root or minor7b13. I use it a lot and it is very movable to create other chords as floating bridge said putting a Bb in the bass gives you Lydian I also really like to use it as Lydian#5 if you put Ab in the bass. </p>
Floatingbridge on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7068
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 23:07:29 +0000
Floatingbridge 7068@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>That's the stuff in the Brett wilmott book ( mel bay's complete book of harmony theory and voicing ) which uses 15 different 7th type chords( various 1357s ) strictly in drop 2s and all their inversions ; strictly in the middle four strings . Being able to flip through these on their own for their own sake and sound and inversions is kind of requisite , then these are to be played against a bass note ( this must've been tough to do before looper pedals or at least the line 6 green guy ) to start seeing how these chords color and show various tensions. </p>
guitar1025 on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7067
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:34:47 +0000
guitar1025 7067@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I've tried both ways in terms of the memorization aspect. I think, for me it's most helpful to think of the top note, as I like to think melodically when I comp. Also, I was running the shape horizontally (chromatically) and playing the open E string underneath. So for the initial x7553 I would say "R, b3, b13/#5, b7 (all based on E in the bass)." So, I would call it either Emin7#5 or I could use it to suggest an altered sound, but I keep in mind that there's no third. I then move the shape up a half step and repeat the process until I've gone through all 12 possibilities. I took a lesson with Lage last fall and that was something he stressed to me; he sometimes like to play chords that are purposely ambiguous (no 3rd's or 7th's etc.) for different textures.</p> <p>I'm familiar with most of the books you've mentioned. Being a Berklee grad, one of my biggest regrets is never taking a semester with Jon Damian (class or private lesson). I've heard nothing but AMAZING (not just good) things about him as a teacher.</p> <p>Invaluable info and insight, man! Thanks!! </p>
Poparad on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7066
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:34:24 +0000
Poparad 7066@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>To answer your earlier question about where it comes from: It's a closed voicing in first inversion. Drop 2 and Drop 3 (and so on) voicings are closed voicings with the 2nd or 3rd (or whatever) notes from the top dropped down an octave. This voicing isn't spread out like that, but instead is in its condensed, closed arrangement. Just like Cmaj7 arranged C E G B. </p>
Floatingbridge on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7065
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 22:08:09 +0000
Floatingbridge 7065@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>This stuff crops up in a few books . Perhaps the most visual and succinct organization and layout I've seen was the 'butterfly palette chart ' From Jon Damian " a guitarists guide to composing and improvising " or something ( berkelee press 2002ish?) which organizes the arguably most useful three note sets into a few classes of implications and then showcases them in both close and open expressions<br /> . The van eps book briefly touches on this in maybe book 3 and in the holdsworth book " melody chords for guitar<br /> "; "just for the curious" video; various interviews of his he sort of hints at this being his deal... The little bridge in 'letters of marque' uses a 4th , 2nd , 6th type interval structure in a harmonic minor realm - which yields pretty haunting chords against a pedal- the dude taught himself to play! My god, what a thorough mind! . Liebman touches on it in a chromatic. 'Approach to jazz harmony' . In the Slonimsky book in ( thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns )the back he shows examples of it ( labeled as " pandiatonicism " ). A teacher of mine who dug monder a lot made me aware of them. Memorizing sets can get tough because some areas showcase a more juicy aspect of the scale than other degrees might . Also , are you viewing it from the melody note the mid or the bass voice? Then I kinda got myself in a hole with that as far as memorizing when you start trying to weave this into tunes or II V I or iiV i contexts - just that alone ; or using these devices to comp or solo by thinking "well ,the first 8 bars of all the things you are are in Ab type of thinking.<br /> The sets of 3 notes per string are definitely easier to visualize and digest. 4 notes are tough and sometimes are not possible unless you change the string sets where they appear which totally affects the tone , flow and memorization. Maybe it's not good to memorize these but practice moving through them . To think of the notes themselves: (when I'm doing these in F everything is cool but all my Bs are flat ). The 4 note ones can be viewed as 3 note ones jumbled together. The cool thing with the lage stuff is aside from all this - its context against the bass too. </p>
guitar1025 on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7064
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:34:52 +0000
guitar1025 7064@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I think that's it, floatingbridge!!</p> <p>When I briefly worked on interval sets (a long time ago) I worked on them in three note chunks (mainly because of some of the difficult stretches when 4 notes are involved), so I didn't immediately recognize it.</p> <p>I bought the Mel Bay Vic Juris book a long time ago. I'll need to delve into these a little deeper. There are some really cool sounds in there.</p> <p>Thanks for the extra set of eyes (and ears)!! </p>
Floatingbridge on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7062
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:06:34 +0000
Floatingbridge 7062@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>When looking at the NOTES involved I see : a major triad in 1st inversion and the ninth on top of that. It looks like a cool melodic device ( see Coltrane matrix melodic device: "1235" ) turned on its side and used harmonically. on it's own ( with out context ) it sounds kind of neutral and nothing ... Maybe that's it's appeal. It can be used for major : ( i'll keep the example as egcd : x7553x ): if a a bass player played c it's kind of a big open ended c major chord ; if a bass player played Bb it would imply Bb Lydian ; if you put A in the bass it's an A min 11 type thing . Or maybe do the Coltrane matrix thing harmonically to get right back where you start or as a target for one if budgeted out properly : target/ root&gt; up min 3&gt; up a 4th from that&gt; up a min 3rd from that &gt; up a 4 th from there&gt; up a 3rd from there&gt; up a 4th to arrive at the first chord !<br /> Or maybe see this as an interval set you can run through all scale degrees ( of all scales you wish to work with ) : here it is egcd ( viewing the intervals between each note from low to high there is: a 3rd and then a 4th and then a second) if you are aware of the NOTES involved and you respect the interval set you can find other cool shape/ sounds that come from this set ( and others )... And you can find new ways of making some sound associations that imply certain scales without using certain basic grips that you may be bored with . </p>
Floatingbridge on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7061
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 21:05:40 +0000
Floatingbridge 7061@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <br />
guitar1025 on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7059
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 18:22:31 +0000
guitar1025 7059@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Yes and no. I guess I should have been more specific. I was referring more to the shape. It's a shape that I see a lot; moved around a lot for various chords and I was wondering what the derivation is for example;</p> <p>xx3555 is a drop 2 voicing. . .</p> <p>so I was wondering if there's a similar explanation for this shape (and I'm sure it will differ depending on it's application).</p> <p>Lage uses it a lot in this video</p> <p><a href="http://youtu.be/RESXCIWZyFU" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/RESXCIWZyFU</a> </p>
david6strings on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7057
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 17:13:17 +0000
david6strings 7057@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>i think i dont get you. This is a Cadd9/E a triad with the t9. is what you are asking or not? </p>
guitar1025 on "Chord Voicing" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/chord-voicing#post-7055
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Wed, 04 Apr 2012 16:25:25 +0000
guitar1025 7055@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hey guys!</p> <p>I was messing around with this voicing today while I was practicing:</p> <p>x7553x</p> <p>This is a voicing that I have seen A LOT, whether it's in videos on YouTube or watching guitarists up close. Can anyone tell me the derivation of it?? I've been messing around with it in the usual way; playing it chromatically over a pedal to see all of the possible uses for it. From that alone I can see WHY I see it so often. Just curious where it actually comes from.</p> <p>Thanks guys! </p>
silverwater on "quartal harmony" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/quartal-harmony#post-3644
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Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:17:39 +0000
silverwater 3644@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>One concept Ive developed using this shape:</p> <p>x8889x (or xx3344) [fm11]</p> <p>...I&#39;ve found that min7, dom7, and maj7 chords each have 4 of these that that can be played without any &quot;avoid&quot; notes. To find them, I just go by the note in the highest voice.</p> <p>- For min7 chords, the note in the highest voice can be the b7, R, b3, or 4th, like this for Dmin7:</p> <p>(x5556x) (x7778x) (xx7788) (xx991010) </p> <p>See how the top voices are F, G, C, and D?</p> <p>- For Dom7 chords, the highest voice can be the b7, R, 4th, or the 5th.</p> <p>- For Maj7 chords, the highest voice can be the R, 2, 5, or the 6th.</p> <p>The min7 ones give you a dorian sound, the dom7 ones give you a sus4 sound, and the maj7 ones give you a lydian sound.<br /> _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________</p> <p>The other things that I do with quartal harmony: </p> <p>- Be able to play up and down the neck through the major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales. </p> <p>- Learn all the inversions ( I generally stick to 3 note voicings for these)</p> <p>- Take a tune, for example &quot;Solar&quot;. You know what major, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales can fit over these chords. Start somewhere on the neck with a quartal voicing. Move up to the next available voicing, using half notes. The notes that you have available are the notes that you&#39;d be playing if you were playing a single note solo. Don&#39;t worry about beating on &quot;avoid&quot; notes, or don&#39;t worry that you&#39;re not playing enough chord tones to outline the changes. It&#39;s not going to matter. The bass player will be outlining the changes anyways. The point here is to be musical, not to outline exactly a bunch of ii-V-Is that have been played enough already over the years. </p>
Neither on "quartal harmony" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/quartal-harmony#post-3638
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Wed, 05 Jan 2011 19:22:06 +0000
Neither 3638@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>You&#39;ll find some answers here : <a href="http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/quartal-harmony-adaptation-over-standards" rel="nofollow">http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/quartal-harmony-adaptation-over-standards</a> </p>
Matt on "quartal harmony" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/quartal-harmony#post-3637
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Wed, 05 Jan 2011 18:26:39 +0000
Matt 3637@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>i&#39;m trying to get into using more fourth type voicings, and i&#39;m curious how you guys go about using them; i&#39;ve used them to great extent over &#39;blue bossa&#39; (using diatonic fourths for minor and harmonic minor), but otherwise, i haven&#39;t found ways to use them. </p>
brandoncoleman35 on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2536
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Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:43:52 +0000
brandoncoleman35 2536@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>There&#39;s a lot of information on polychord/polychordal scales in Dave Liebman&#39;s book &quot;A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody&quot;. Really interesting read; I checked it out a few years ago from my school library and some of the concepts in it I&#39;ve found very useful. I was always curious about the interesting relationship of these &quot;poly-scales&quot; to spectralist harmony...once you reach the upper registers of harmonic strata you begin to diverge from the normal harmonic series and begin to get some interesting tonalities. I guess one could say it&#39;s like Giacinto Scelsi meets jazz. :p Anyways, I&#39;m probably gonna go analyze some Kurt and Mark Turner and see if I can decipher what&#39;s going on.</p> <p>-Brandon<br /> <a href="http://www.brandoncolemanmusic.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.brandoncolemanmusic.com</a> </p>
Colonel Trane on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2531
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Wed, 01 Sep 2010 10:30:13 +0000
Colonel Trane 2531@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Mark Turner uses a lot of polychords. I messed around with the octave dependent scales a bit when I was writing a tune with quite a few of them, they are tricky though. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2525
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Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:07:09 +0000
JorgeRubiales 2525@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I think poparad&#39;s approach would be more consonant with Kurt&#39;s findings. I have yet to play them to hear them myself ;) </p>
Poparad on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2522
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Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:18:45 +0000
Poparad 2522@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I was messing around with this a while ago for a tune I wrote. Part of the head uses polychords, and I was trying to figure out how to approach them to add them to the blowing section, but I never quite got the hang of it, so I just left them out of that part.</p> <p>The two voicings were as such:</p> <p>Eadd4 / Cmaj:</p> <p>(low to high)<br /> 332204</p> <p>Abadd4 / Bmaj:</p> <p>226648 (the 22 part is tapped with the right hand)</p> <p>For improvising, I was taking two major scales and splicing them together at the middle point of the chords. So for the first one, I&#39;d play C major in the lower end of the instrument, and around actual middle C (not written middle C), I&#39;d switch to E major. The two scales overlap below that with an A and a B, so it makes the transition fairly smooth.</p> <p>For the second one, it would be B major on the bottom, and around the same point again at C#/Db above middle C, I&#39;d switch to Ab major.</p> <p>It&#39;s something I&#39;d like to experiment more with in the future, but thinking about it in terms of polychords makes it much easier to comprehend. </p>
Pascau on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2521
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Tue, 31 Aug 2010 12:49:25 +0000
Pascau 2521@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Two sounds I&#39;ve been working that I guess are kind of related to this:</p> <p>On an E melodic minor sound - E G B D# F# G Bb C# F#. So EminMaj7 with b5, 6, and 9 on top.<br /> On an A Lydian sound - A A(octave) G# C# D# F# G# C natural. So from A, up an octave, down minor second, up a fourth, and then the rest are upwards movements. 1 8 7 ( then upper octave) 3 #4 6 7 #9</p> <p>I haven&#39;t really thought of them as being octave dependent, but I&#39;ve been using them like that if I understand the idea correctly. Cool sounds I thought I&#39;d share either way. </p>
eSkills on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2518
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Tue, 31 Aug 2010 07:17:38 +0000
eSkills 2518@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Talking about Warne Marsh, check out his line over Confirmation from the unissued Copenhagen concert with NHØP and Alan Levitt. Starts at the second chorus, 01.17. It&#39;s out on spotify... Crazy stuff! </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2516
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Mon, 30 Aug 2010 23:24:57 +0000
JorgeRubiales 2516@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Maybe it&#39;s the lack of sleep, but trying this concept at the piano now I hear an interesting relationship between a major lower scale (dominant arpeggio) and a minor upper scale e.g: G major key (D7) / G minor key.</p> <p>Anyone hears something over there, or I should try to sleep some more hours? </p>
LJM on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2509
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Mon, 30 Aug 2010 10:20:55 +0000
LJM 2509@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Smith: Thanks for sharing that concept Steve Cardenas showed you, I wouldn´t have tought it that way!<br /> Sandemose: Thanks for the warm welcome!<br /> JorgeRubiales: Great finding! </p>
Joel on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2506
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Mon, 30 Aug 2010 07:25:53 +0000
Joel 2506@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Thanks for the heads up about Warne Marsh guys. Haven&#39;t checked him out before and is fuelling my slight Mark Turner obsession... </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2504
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Mon, 30 Aug 2010 04:44:18 +0000
JorgeRubiales 2504@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Thank you very much for the info LJM!</p> <p>Talking about that, I found on Jimmy Emerzian&#39;s site <a href="http://www.emerzianmusic.com/bio.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.emerzianmusic.com/bio.html</a> a master&#39;s thesis about Wane Marsh&#39;s influence on Mark Turner. Hope you dig it! ;) </p>
Sandemose on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2503
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Mon, 30 Aug 2010 02:54:40 +0000
Sandemose 2503@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>LJM: great post, thanks alot for sharing! Welcome to the forum as well, great to have you onboard!</p> <p>Best regards, Sandemose </p>
Anonymous on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2502
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Sun, 29 Aug 2010 21:58:01 +0000
Anonymous 2502@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>LJM, that tonic major scale is great(well all five!!). it reminds me of a lesson i had with steve cardenas where he said that sometimes he would just improvise through the circle of fiths over a tune to get outside lines that sounded in. </p>
LJM on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2501
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Sun, 29 Aug 2010 21:20:29 +0000
LJM 2501@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Thanks Smith! I also feel that a great deal of Mark Turner´s rhythmic and harmonic vocabulary comes from that school (especially from Warne). </p>
Anonymous on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-2500
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Sun, 29 Aug 2010 20:58:19 +0000
Anonymous 2500@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>LMJ, i think you nailed it. that is some great info in there, thanks! i definitely hear mark turner doing that </p>