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The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Tag: patterns - Recent Posts http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Tag: patterns - Recent Posts en Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:55:35 +0000 silverwater on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-5477
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Sat, 03 Sep 2011 14:24:51 +0000
silverwater 5477@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>4NG? </p>
Guk on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-5476
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Sat, 03 Sep 2011 13:57:29 +0000
Guk 5476@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I study this tunes through 4 note grouping (R - 2 - 3 - 5 ... R - 3 - 5 - 7) and their invertions; there are multiple invertions!<br /> or simply 4NG diatonically or pentatonically.<br /> Just with this few tips one can be hours practicing.<br /> Cheers</p> <p>Diego Riedemann </p> <p><a href="http://www.diegoriedemann.cl" rel="nofollow">http://www.diegoriedemann.cl</a> </p>
arewolfe on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-5453
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Thu, 25 Aug 2011 20:50:31 +0000
arewolfe 5453@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>It took me 5 years of shedding Countdown until I actually felt like I had it down. This is how I would practice playing on it --- Here's an example of arpeggios over E-7, F7, Bbmaj7, Db7 staying in roughly the 4th and 5th positions --- starting on the 3rd fret of the low E string. You can get a lot of hammering going on with this technique since it's easy to do two notes per string through a lot of these arps.</p> <p>G, B, D, E | A, C, Eb, F | Bb, D, F, A | Cb, Db, F, Ab</p> <p>I'd continue that to the highest note in the position and then come back down. It helped significantly. </p>
sandman on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-5446
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Wed, 24 Aug 2011 20:30:52 +0000
sandman 5446@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I agree with everything that has been said. I would like to add a little bit that helped me out (especially with giant steps), and that is to think about the changes and modulations in a purely intervalic way.</p> <p>It is probably well understood in this forum, as I&#39;m sure I&#39;ve read the discussion here, but giant steps is based on a repeating intervalic pattern that being minor 3rd, perfect 4th, minor 3rd to for the entire tune (although the cycles is taken out and replaced with a more simple 2-5-1 in the first two times through the cycle, and of course in the pseudo B section). The same sort of stuff shows up in all of the aforementioned pieces (to some degree). </p> <p>so in the case of Giant steps, I&#39;m not to think &quot;I&#39;m going from the chord B major to D7 to G major&quot;, or even &quot;the tonal center of B major to G major&quot;, But rather, the harmony moves a minor third up than a perfect 4th up , then a minor 3rd up, and so on...</p> <p>I found thinking about them as such was helpful </p>
JorgeRubiales on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4175
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Mon, 28 Mar 2011 06:55:41 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4175@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hey people!</p> <p>Silverwater, I know the notes on the neck, I aso study classical guitar so I need to hehe.</p> <p>The thing is, I can&#39;t think of modulations as, for example &quot;ok so we&#39;re on 3 flats, going to 1 flat, going to 1 sharp....&quot;. When there are not many accidentals on the key signature I can do it most of the time if the tempo isn&#39;t too high. But when you start getting things like 5 flats to 4 sharps....I just can&#39;t do it, and I go with the &quot;insert pattern here&quot;, wether a scale, areggio, whatever.</p> <p>That&#39;s what I mean for &quot;getting rid of patterns&quot;, not to stop playing them, but not needing them because you already see what your pool of notes are all over the neck.</p> <p>Greetings! </p>
david6strings on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4170
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Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:20:03 +0000
david6strings 4170@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>hey silverwater when you practice those visualizing exercise in a single string do you use a fingering rule ( like two fingers groups or just finger 1 ) or you improvise the fingering while you play the arpeggio or whatever you are practicing.<br /> Best. </p>
silverwater on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4168
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Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:17:12 +0000
silverwater 4168@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>You should ALWAYS know the names of the notes you&#39;re playing...but patterns are great because they help us find the notes we want, so no one should think that they have to do away with patterns all together to be a competent player. All the great players uses positions/patterns when improvising.</p> <p>Ways to improve knowledge of the neck:</p> <p>- Single String Arpeggios: Pick a chord with all its tensions [ex. Cmaj7(9)(#11)(13)] Pick a string, and start on the lowest available note, and then skip the next note. So for the 1st string, play the notes E, B, D, F#, A, C....going down....B, G, E, C, A, F#. </p> <p>- Improv on a single string</p> <p>- Play diatonic intervals up and down the neck on two strings</p> <p>- move simple chord forms like diatonic 4ths, invernted 4ths, and triads up and down the neck. </p> <p>- Read in all positions. </p>
Basile865 on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4155
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Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:51:58 +0000
Basile865 4155@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>The journey is the destination grasshoppa! ;-)</p> <p>and DGP, AGAIN I like the way you think! Great advice. Especially the &quot;pools of notes&quot; Great way to think about that so one can really explore. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4150
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Fri, 25 Mar 2011 17:21:55 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4150@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Thank you all, I&#39;ll work on it....long way home ^_^ </p>
DGP on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4141
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Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:25:57 +0000
DGP 4141@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>It seems that you might have two problems. First is just being able to insert the patterns in the right change, and second is divorcing yourself from playing the pattern.</p> <p>Here&#39;s what I would do....</p> <p>1) Work out some patterns you like, and practice playing them throughout some tunes REALLY slowly. (As for tune suggestions... I don&#39;t know what you&#39;re into, but my favorites for practice are &quot;All The Things,&quot; &quot;Blue In Green,&quot; and &quot;Solar&quot; All provide many changes to play, but aren&#39;t as convoluted as, say, Giant Steps.) Increase the tempo as you become more comfortable. There&#39;s no use in trying to play more note based if you can&#39;t iron out what notes work with what change, so solve this problem first. Patterns are a good way to map out groups of correct notes in a way that organizes them into something coherent and musical. </p> <p>2) Once you commit these patterns to memory, then you also understand what notes you can play on each change. Cease to think of patterns as patterns but as pools of notes you can use to make new lines. Again, practice REALLY slowly at first. Also, what I said above I think applies to this step. It&#39;s all a process of trial-and-error from this point on. The more you experiment, the faster you will attain the goal of freeing yourself from patterns.</p> <p>I like to think of this Bill Evans quote when practicing vocabulary:</p> <p>&quot;First of all, I never strive for identity. That&#39;s something that just has happened automatically as a result, I think, of just putting things together, tearing things apart and putting it together my own way, and somehow I guess the individual comes through eventually.&quot;</p> <p>Really, all it boils down to is &#39;putting things together, tearing things apart and putting it together&#39; in your own way. Easier said than done, for sure. But for the past year or so this is all i&#39;ve been doing, and I think my lines have become more controlled as a result... That said, it never ends... there&#39;s always room for more... but you&#39;ll reach a point where you&#39;ll be thinking and playing differently. </p> <p>Best of luck... Keep at it... hope this helps. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4138
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Fri, 25 Mar 2011 04:40:46 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4138@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Well, I don&#39;t have much problems when there&#39;s a more static harmony (which is practically never in jazz lol), but when changing tonal centers I get lost pretty quickly and rely exclusively on arpeggios (and even then I have to fake it, but that&#39;s another issue...)</p> <p>That being said, I&#39;ve seen my teacher&#39;s study routine papers, and they&#39;re exclusively a staff, a scale name (e.g: D melodic minor) and the notes it comprises. And when he taught us the caged patterns or 3 notes per string, he had to look previously to the pattern to see what &quot;patterns 4&quot; was. So it&#39;s clear to me that he plays just thinking in notes. Also because he constantly uses wide intervals while playing (I think the only time I&#39;ve seen him playing seconds, is at the end of a phrase, mostly as a drum fill). </p>
Basile865 on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4131
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 19:26:07 +0000
Basile865 4131@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I think thats good advice DGP </p>
DGP on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4130
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 18:11:20 +0000
DGP 4130@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>There&#39;s nothing wrong w/ patterns on their own — it&#39;s how you apply them that&#39;s important. I think of a patter as something you like to hear rather than something you need to fall back on when your short of ideas (not to say that pattens shouldn&#39;t feel familiar). Come up with patterns that are musically stimulating to you — ones that you&#39;d sing as much as play. Play those, and play around with them. Change up the rhythm once in a while, phrase them in new ways. Apply them in different places of the tune, and consider them in context of the larger development of your solo. But it&#39;s paramount that you hear the pattern working somewhere rather than thinlking &quot;insert pattern here.&quot; That&#39;s my two cents.... </p>
Matt on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4127
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:57:12 +0000
Matt 4127@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>i think more of apreggios and traids relating to chords in a way. like playing the 9th, 1th, and 13th over a min7 chord gives you the relative ii chord, if that makes sense. which is sort of pattern based. </p>
Basile865 on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4125
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 11:00:03 +0000
Basile865 4125@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I think the point of your teacher saying that is that he doesn&#39;t want you to limit yourself to pattern or boxes because you can get stuck only seeing pattern rather then all the possible notes. </p> <p>Outside of that I completely play with pattern, but they&#39;re ones I made myself, whether it be a string skipping pattern or arpeggio. Especially for faster longer lines. As I go through them I&#39;m seeing patterns. I make most of my lines by taking standard patterns (scales/arpeggios) and spending time modifying them. </p> <p>Use patterns as a map but spend the time finding all the scenic back roads to make it more interesting........thats kind of how i think of it. </p>
wilmore on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4123
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:45:03 +0000
wilmore 4123@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>doesn&#39;t sound like kurt ever stopped using patterns. </p>
Poparad on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4122
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:02:32 +0000
Poparad 4122@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I&#39;ve only increased my use of patterns over the years. I still thinking heavily in note notes, too, but I&#39;ve worked on fusing the two together so I can both picture the notes and picture the patterns. Doing away with patterns completely is a pretty unrealistic goal, in my opinion. Obviously there are pitfalls related to relying too heavily on patterns alone, but that&#39;s why learning the notes (and functions) in combination is so useful. Even just thinking note names is still a form of playing with patterns. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "How long took you to get rid of patterns?" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/how-long-took-you-to-get-rid-of-patterns#post-4121
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Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:06:20 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4121@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hello everybody!</p> <p>A few days ago I was talking with my teacher, and he told me that we should start thinking of notes instead of patterns, but in a relaxed way (i.e: don&#39;t frustrate if you can&#39;t play sh$t that way...). </p> <p>He also said that it would take me like 10 years to be able to play like that, but I don&#39;t know if he was messing with me or it was a true statement.</p> <p>That&#39;s why I ask you guys: how long have you been studying guitar, and how long ago did you stopped thinking with patterns?</p> <p>Thanks for reading! </p>
Quintricacy on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3499
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Tue, 14 Dec 2010 08:07:54 +0000
Quintricacy 3499@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>One thing that Coltrane does over those kind of changes is move in whole tones, check out the opening phrase from 26-2 and you&#39;ll see what I mean. This works especially well from the 5th. So if you were playing Giant Steps you would start (in half notes) </p> <p>Bma7:F#- D7:E- Gma7:D- Bb7:C- Ebma7: Bb</p> <p>This works better when the changes are moving, If you kept the whole tone thing going over the Eb you get some &quot;wrong&quot; notes. </p>
timwendel on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3498
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Tue, 14 Dec 2010 00:35:46 +0000
timwendel 3498@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I like playing Giant Steps as a ballad, really slow. Also, sometimes taking all of the changes out and just playing through the key centers can be fun and good for the ear, either rhubato or in time. Also, arpeggiating through the changes and being strict with your path can help. It forces you to make the connections as they arise as opposed to always relying on your habitual resolutions. Also, playing these tunes in different meters forces you to find different things to play. It also makes going back to four feel really easy and flowing. </p>
Floatingbridge on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3441
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Mon, 06 Dec 2010 20:29:57 +0000
Floatingbridge 3441@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>this ( kind of like the above ideas ) can get you moving around. major; use 1235. minor 12b35.<br /> also using only the maj ( 1235 ) at root of where you want to resolve,then a b3 above that,then a 4th above that,then a b3 above that,then a 4th above that, ab3 above that, a 4th above brings you back.<br /> eg: using the 1235 pattern starting at these points will bring you back to the initial chord<br /> G, Bb,Eb,F#,B , D, G<br /> this is a coltrane way of navigating. conversely,you dont have to take these only up hill , you could take those in any direction ( if you&#39;re using the harmony ). they are simple 4 note patterns that are brief ways of identifying the harmony and also happen to be a beat&#39;s worth if plated as 16th notes. </p>
silverwater on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3440
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Mon, 06 Dec 2010 19:21:46 +0000
silverwater 3440@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>@Gelleepglop:</p> <p>I like that approach a lot, I&#39;m going to start to work on it. Also, a buddy of mine today recommended that I work on getting 4 note patterns under my fingers, and work them through all keys, all strings, and all fingerings by approaching it like this:</p> <p>Take for example, 4 notes over a minor chord: 1 b3 4 5</p> <p>Start with the 1st finger somewhere high up on the 6th string, let&#39;s say with F#-. Now play the next one though the cycle of 5ths, B-, starting on the 5th string. Go down a 5th again to E-, then to A-, etc. etc. etc.</p> <p>-------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> -------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> ------------------------------------------------------------------<br /> ---------------------------14-16-------------------------12-14<br /> ---------14-16--14-17-----------------12-14--12-15-------<br /> -14-17---------------------------12-15--------- -------------</p> <p>Go down all the way to the end of the fret board, keep in the circle of fifths, but ascend the neck:</p> <p>-------------------------------------------------<br /> ------------------------------------------------<br /> -------------------------------------------------<br /> ------2-4-----------7-9---------------12-14<br /> -2-5---------7-10------------12-15---------<br /> -------------------------------------------------</p> <p>B- E- A-</p> <p>Now you can repeat what you did, but with the roots 5th and 4th strings....repeat on all strings. Then, start over, but begin your pattern with the 2nd finger.....</p> <p>Then I suppose after you have some patterns down for all chord types you can run them through a tune, in position. </p>
gleepglop on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3439
Strict Standards: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in /home/actidemann/kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php on line 9
Mon, 06 Dec 2010 18:37:40 +0000
gleepglop 3439@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>In addition to the suggestions above, I&#39;d recommend working on playing through the changes targeting specific chord tones (135) on all strings all over the neck.<br /> So play through countdown (or whatever) and play (in half notes) all roots, then all thirds, then all 5ths (for the quickest satisfaction, I suggest starting with 3rds, then 5ths, then roots, but YMMV). </p> <p>Once you can do that, then work on approaching the chord tones by 1/2 step below on the &amp; of 2 and &amp; of 4.<br /> Then do the same thing, but approaching the chord tones diatonically from the step above. You can use either the tone diatonic to the current chord or to the resolution chord.</p> <p>Since you only have four 8ths per chord, you have two intervening notes on each chord to play around with using other chord, scale, or chromatic tones (i.e., 1st note of each chord is a chord tone, last note is an approach to the next chord tone). You can always choose between playing on the current chord or anticipating the next chord harmonically.</p> <p>Once you can nail a chord tone at each change, you can also vary the rhythms, using triplets, anticipations, etc. and also by delaying the resolution by an 8th note. You can repeat the process with substitutions, and with upper structures.</p> <p>By the time you get that far, you&#39;ll probably have some ideas of your own about how to progress further.</p> <p>This process works very well for any set of chord changes that happen every 2 beats. </p>
andyjazz on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3438
Strict Standards: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in /home/actidemann/kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php on line 9
Mon, 06 Dec 2010 17:34:54 +0000
andyjazz 3438@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Personally, I would transcribe the Coltrane tunes/solos first. Then maybe &quot;Cubism.&quot; I think that tune came from an exercise that the Winkmaster created in order to practice the Coltrane four tonic system. He mentions it in one of his seminars, either the NGW one or the Sal Paulo, and plays some great pentatonic lines through it. The Weiskopf book is very interesting, and definately worth checking out, it has some interesting patterns and exercises, in my opinion. I haven&#39;t worked any of the Bergonzi books, so I can&#39;t comment. </p>
guitarmo on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3436
Strict Standards: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in /home/actidemann/kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php on line 9
Mon, 06 Dec 2010 13:00:02 +0000
guitarmo 3436@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Knowledge of the neck is crucial. I never practiced any specific patterns or systems, but knowing the neck well has allowed me to play Coltrane changes. </p>
harmnobean on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3435
Strict Standards: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in /home/actidemann/kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php on line 9
Mon, 06 Dec 2010 12:32:50 +0000
harmnobean 3435@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Walt Weiskopf&#39;s &quot;Coltrane: A Player&#39;s Guide to His Harmony&quot; may be what you&#39;re looking for </p>
eSkills on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3432
Strict Standards: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in /home/actidemann/kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php on line 9
Mon, 06 Dec 2010 08:26:24 +0000
eSkills 3432@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Don&#39;t forget to sing and do a lot of ear training... </p>
silverwater on "Training for Countdown, Moment's Notice, and similar tunes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/training-for-countdown-moments-notice-and-similar-tunes#post-3430
Strict Standards: Non-static method BP_Options::get() should not be called statically in /home/actidemann/kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/bb-includes/backpress/functions.bp-options.php on line 9
Mon, 06 Dec 2010 05:22:59 +0000
silverwater 3430@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Ok I&#39;ve really been sucking on these tunes lately. It seems that everyone who can rock on these and similar tunes has practiced a lot of R2b345 or R456b7 or R2356 patterns or what have you. </p> <p>I&#39;m a bit stuck in a rut in how to develop a system to practice the necessary shapes to be able to rip through these tunes. I&#39;m thinking about just getting Bergonzi&#39;s Melodic Patterns book and working through there. Has anyone worked through this book, or some other book, or developed another systematic approach to playing on these tunes? </p>