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The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Tag: scales - Recent Posts http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Tag: scales - Recent Posts en Sun, 24 Jul 2016 06:48:28 +0000 patfarlow on "All the Way to Rajasthan - chords" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-way-to-rajasthan-chords#post-14299
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Wed, 27 Jan 2016 02:50:11 +0000
patfarlow 14299@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>thats because this place is</p> <p>d<br /> e<br /> a<br /> d </p>
bsacco on "All the Way to Rajasthan - chords" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-way-to-rajasthan-chords#post-14298
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Tue, 26 Jan 2016 21:06:50 +0000
bsacco 14298@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>It's been a year and no one has responded to my post...wow, i feel lonely...;( </p>
geetarted on "Kurt's approach to immprovising with 4-note-per-string scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/kurts-approach-to-immprovising-with-4-note-per-string-scales#post-13595
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Mon, 15 Sep 2014 16:29:38 +0000
geetarted 13595@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I have an E-book that a chapter discusses this concept. Message me and i'll send a free pdf of the 4/5string scale approach. Tetrachords etc.. I also have a 4 string approach for pentatonic playing as well as using 2 or 3 pentatonic scales. As said, message me at <a href="mailto:geetarted@gmail.com">geetarted@gmail.com</a> for sample pdf's. :) </p>
AmoryRaymond on "Kurt's approach to immprovising with 4-note-per-string scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/kurts-approach-to-immprovising-with-4-note-per-string-scales#post-13594
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Sun, 14 Sep 2014 00:18:46 +0000
AmoryRaymond 13594@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Thanks fakejake. That's a perfect exercise for lateral movement. </p>
fakejake on "Kurt's approach to immprovising with 4-note-per-string scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/kurts-approach-to-immprovising-with-4-note-per-string-scales#post-13529
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Mon, 28 Jul 2014 04:50:07 +0000
fakejake 13529@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I tend to disagree... I don't know how much he uses actually 4 notes per string patterns, but if he does I'm pretty sure he practiced them a lot. From what I've seen in his clinics, Kurt is quite aware of the technical aspects of (his) guitar playing. I've talked to students of his, and they told me he works alot on technique with them as well.<br /> One place he certainly uses 4 and even 5 notes per string patterns is when he place scales horizontically across the whole neck. 5 notes per string (doing a slide whenever there is a halfnote) is the only way you get from the lowest E the the highest D in a fluid way. </p>
Din on "Kurt's approach to immprovising with 4-note-per-string scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/kurts-approach-to-immprovising-with-4-note-per-string-scales#post-13526
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Sun, 27 Jul 2014 21:09:14 +0000
Din 13526@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I think that in jazz you don't think too much about how many notes per string you're playing. AH does, and in metal music they do a lot too.<br /> There may be some places where KR played 4 nps stuff, but I bet he didn't practiced or thought about it. </p>
Dioxic on "Kurt's approach to immprovising with 4-note-per-string scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/kurts-approach-to-immprovising-with-4-note-per-string-scales#post-13525
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Sun, 27 Jul 2014 13:11:07 +0000
Dioxic 13525@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hey guys,</p> <p>I've been studying the use of 4NPS scales in jazz music lately and I've heard that Kurt uses them a lot and it's one of his visible Holdsworthian influences. I'm not too familiar with his work, but could any of you point to some specific places in tunes I might hear Kurt's approach to phrasing with 4NPS scales so that I might transcribe them?</p> <p>Thanks </p>
bsacco on "All the Way to Rajasthan - chords" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-way-to-rajasthan-chords#post-12615
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Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:01:08 +0000
bsacco 12615@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Ok, here's what I have for the chords so far. I'm about 80% sure of the accuracy. Anyone want to add/correct?</p> <p>------------------------------------------------------------------</p> <p>All the Way to Rajasthan by Kurt Rosenwinkel<br /> ----------------------------------------------------------------</p> <p>F Suspended 2nd - A#m7bb5 (4x)</p> <p>Cm7 - Fm7 (4x) </p> <p>CHORUS<br /> Fm7 – Bbm7 – Cm7 - Bbm7 (2x)<br /> Dm - Bbm7 (2x) </p> <p>Cm7 - Fm7 (6x) </p> <p>CHORUS<br /> Fm7 – Bbm7 – Cm7 - Bbm7 (4x) </p> <p>F Suspended 2nd - A#m7bb5 (4x)<br /> CHORUS<br /> Fm7 – Bbm7 – Cm7 - Bbm7 (6x) </p> <p>Dm - Bbm7 (8x) </p> <p>F Suspended 2nd - A#m7bb5 (8x) – OUT </p>
bsacco on "All the Way to Rajasthan - chords" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-way-to-rajasthan-chords#post-12580
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Fri, 28 Mar 2014 15:09:30 +0000
bsacco 12580@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>bump...Kurt? Are you out there? </p>
bsacco on "All the Way to Rajasthan - chords" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-way-to-rajasthan-chords#post-12510
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Fri, 21 Mar 2014 18:23:28 +0000
bsacco 12510@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hello KR fans,</p> <p>Just wondering if anyone had the chords to "All the Way to Rajasthan".</p> <p>I really dig this song and would eventually be able to play it.</p> <p>Just trying figure out the chords and what scales to play over it.</p> <p>THis is for my own educational purposes.</p> <p>THanks,<br /> bob </p>
theguywhoplaysguitar on "All the things you are intro" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-things-you-are-intro#post-12040
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Tue, 14 Jan 2014 20:11:12 +0000
theguywhoplaysguitar 12040@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hey kley2004 can you send me those Lage Lund videos that were taken down? I meant to comment on the Lage Lund post but I couldn't for some reason...<br /> My email is <a href="mailto:elisnose@yahoo.com">elisnose@yahoo.com</a></p> <p>Thanks!!! </p>
Poparad on "All the things you are intro" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-things-you-are-intro#post-11901
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Wed, 11 Dec 2013 23:21:59 +0000
Poparad 11901@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>One thing to keep in mind: Sounds like dom7#9 are meant to be tense and dissonant, so if you are playing some ideas that use notes that might clash with it, it actually works well because it's still under the umbrella of tension. As long as you resolve really outside notes somehow, the ear is very forgiving.</p> <p>If you want to strictly fit into that sound, just pick an altered dominant sound that has a perfect 5th and a minor 6th in it (which is what the A and G# are on C#7 and the Ab and G are on C7). Phygian dominant is a good contender, especially since the C7 is ultimately a V chord of Fm7, which the tune starts on. C phrygian dominant is also F harmonic minor, which makes sense, with C7 being the V of Fm. </p>
kley2004 on "All the things you are intro" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/all-the-things-you-are-intro#post-11893
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Tue, 10 Dec 2013 15:58:14 +0000
kley2004 11893@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Anyone here tried soloing over the intro of all the things you are: C#7#9 going to C7#9...<br /> The chords suggest a dominant diminished scale sound, but then the two notes preceding them: a to g# and then ab to g would clash with that scale.<br /> What would you use if you were to improvise on those? </p>
acrueldragonegg on "Octave dependant scales" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/octave-dependant-scales#post-11188
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Mon, 22 Apr 2013 02:58:00 +0000
acrueldragonegg 11188@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Do you guys think he's using these concepts here (at 4:55)? <a href="http://youtu.be/5Eg-0Ot5-ko?t=4m55s" rel="nofollow">http://youtu.be/5Eg-0Ot5-ko?t=4m55s</a></p> <p>Sounds like it to me. Sounds amazing. A whole new ethereal level of harmony =D</p> <p>@brandoncoleman35 "A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody" is an AMAZING book. My teacher (who is absolutely phenomenal) let me borrow it. Definitely recommended. </p>
Neither on "Scale shapes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/scales-shapes#post-10882
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Tue, 19 Feb 2013 08:25:44 +0000
Neither 10882@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Same pattern and fingering on this video :</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBuMOrBT1vQ" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBuMOrBT1vQ</a> </p>
Neither on "Scale shapes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/scales-shapes#post-10878
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Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:57:36 +0000
Neither 10878@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Another interesting thing I noticed after transcribing some lines with his fingerings is that he makes extensions between 2nd (middle) and 3rd (ring) fingers. When he talks about playing scales with 4 notes on each string, there is 1 different finger for each note, like Holdsworth. His fingerings for single lines are influenced by George Van Eps Harmonic Mechanisms for Guitar.</p> <p>Here is another video :</p> <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgh3NfSsUE" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYgh3NfSsUE</a></p> <p>The way he fingers this pattern (with triads) is unusual (for me) and very interesting (for what he does on the G &amp; B strings) :<br /> G major, 1rst shape :<br /> E3(2), A2(1), A5(4), D2(1), A3(2), E5(4), A2(1), A5(4), D4(3), D5(4), D2(1), A3(2), A5(4), D4(3), G2(1), G4(3), D5(4), D2(1), D4(3), G2(1), G5(4), B3(2), G4(3), D5(4), G2(1), G5(3), B5(4), E2(1), B3(2), G4(3), G5(3), B5(4), E'3(2), E'5(4), E'2(1), B3(2), G5(3), B5(4), E3(2), E2(1), B3(2), G4(3), G2(1), G5(3), B5(4), B3(2), G4(3), D5(4) etc...</p> <p>How he would finger the same pattern for the 6 other shapes is a ??? </p>
Neither on "Scale shapes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/scales-shapes#post-10876
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Mon, 18 Feb 2013 19:07:29 +0000
Neither 10876@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>For me the interesting thing in the video linked above is that Kurt anchors his scale shapes (he calls it "positions" in the video) with the middle finger. But he plays on this video only the 1rst and 2nd shapes, that aren't different than the "classical" shapes anchored with the first finger and we can't see how he plays the other shapes.</p> <p><em>About my system of notation :</em><br /> E3(2) means that a note (G) is played on the E string below the 3rd fret with the 2nd finger (middle finger).<br /> A5(4) means that a note (D) is played on the A string below the 5th fret with the 4th finger (pinky).</p> <p>In major G (ascending and descending)<br /> 1st shape :<br /> E3(2), E5(4), A2(1), A3(2), A5(4), D2(1), D4(3), D5(4), G2(1), G4(3), G5(4), B3(2), B5(4), E'2(1), E'3(2), E'5(4), E'3(2), E'2(1), B5(4), B3(2), G5(4), G4(3), G2(1), D5(4), D4(3), D2(1), A5(4), A3(2), A2(1), E5(4), E3(2), E2(1)<br /> 2nd shape :<br /> E5(2), E7(4), A3(1), A5(2), A7(4), D4(1), D5(2), D7(4), G4(1), G5(2), G7(4), B5(2), B7(4), E'3(1), E'5(2), E'7(4), E'5(2), E'3(1), B7(4), B5(2), G7(4), G5(2), G4(1), D7(4), D5(2), D4(1), A7(4), A5(2), A3(1), E7(4), E5(2), E3(1)<br /> 3rd shape :<br /> E7(2), E8(3), A5(1), A7(2), A9(4), D5(1), D7(2), D9(4), G5(1), G7(2) [or maybe G7(3) ?], B5(1) [or maybe G7(2) and G9(4) ?], B7(2), B8(3), E'5(1), E'7(2), E'8(3), E'7(2), E'5(1), B8(3), B7(2), B5(1) [or G9(4) ?], G7(2) [or maybe B5(1) and G7(3) ?], G5(1), D9(4), D7(2), D5(1), D5(1), A9(4), A7(2), A5(1), E8(3), E7(2), E5(1)<br /> ...<br /> 7th shape<br /> E14(2), E15(3), A12(1), A14(2), A15(3), D12(1), D14(2), D16(4), G12(1), G14(2) [or maybe G14(3) ?], B12(1) [or maybe G14(2) and G16(4) ?], B13(1) [or B13(2) ? here is the major question], B15(3) [or B15(4) ?], E'12(1), E'14(2), E'15(3), ...</p> <p>The 3rd and 7th shape are the shapes that are different than the "classical" shapes most of us learnt. I think it makes sense for legato (you don't have extentions of the 4th finger !) and when you link this shapes with chords. </p>
docbop on "Scale shapes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/scales-shapes#post-10868
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Fri, 15 Feb 2013 23:21:12 +0000
docbop 10868@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I been doing my best to get away from fingering patterns and to focus on the notes. It's totally impossible to get away from patterns because most get taught with the dots-on-a-grid approach so it's lurking in the background. But the more I get into Bebop the more important the notes become in making the changes in a solo. First thing that got me out of finger patterns was sightreading and having to move all over and having to just know where notes are. Also I've played bass a lot and you tend to shift all over the neck more than guitar and need to know the notes that thinking in a pattern would slow down. </p> <p>when thinking about this topic I thought back to when I was a kid and played trumpet for awhile. As a guitar player you're taught a grid of notes and told they relate, over time they start teaching interval distances, and scale degrees, and if lucky eventually the note names. But as a trumpet player your taught a notes name what it looks like on the staff, and what it sounds like, then taught the fingering to create that note. So IMO guitarists are taught backwards. </p>
Neither on "Scale shapes" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/scales-shapes#post-10863
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Fri, 15 Feb 2013 11:01:33 +0000
Neither 10863@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn2uEBvekcE" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn2uEBvekcE</a> </p>
jorgemg1984 on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9788
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Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:47:01 +0000
jorgemg1984 9788@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>As in most jazz discussion this is in the "one or another" league... why not both? </p>
egav on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9781
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Sun, 28 Oct 2012 23:41:01 +0000
egav 9781@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>As others have said, do both.<br /> Pete might say that, but he says it cause he has all his shit down. Hes been playing for years, and in this day and age, how could he not?<br /> Hes an ear guy, thats for sure, but just by the way he plays, you know he studied his scales like crazy until he could hear it. There's no way he can play like he does if he didn't study his modes, he alters pretty much every single chord he plays over haha.<br /> And just like pete, theres guys who advocate more the use of scales, but the end approach is the same. Learning scales so you can hear the sound. </p>
silverwater on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9764
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Sun, 28 Oct 2012 13:12:50 +0000
silverwater 9764@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Some great explanations on this thread (as always on this forum), not much need to elaborate. </p> <p>Personally, I think this "don't play scales" idea is an inarticulate way for someone to say either "don't rely on fingering patterns" and/or "you should choose notes based on how they sit harmonically" instead of just thinking "I've got the 7 note scales of this scale I can play over this chord", which is limiting and bland.</p> <p>Then, I feel like more experienced players just like to freak out younger players by saying "I don't play scales, I just play by ear". Mythification of legends like Wes as savants who "knew nothing" doesn't help...people still say Louis Armstrong didn't "know anything", which simply isn't true. Learning scales and shit is the natural way to learn how to get to where you're playing by ear, despite what anyone might say. </p> <p>Personally I still like to learn a lot of scales, but I think of them more as sounds to be ingrained (ex. Harmonic major down a M3, or lyd. pentatonic up a M3). Knowledge of the scales helps to transfer the sound to different keys when practicing. </p>
M.L-13 on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9720
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Sat, 27 Oct 2012 02:35:26 +0000
M.L-13 9720@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>hal galper is a badass.his concepts on syncopation and rubato playing definitely worth looking into.scales are a vehicle to get you to places.but like hal would say quoting dizzy "think o f rhythm and the rhythm will pick the right notes for you" </p>
sireel on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9718
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Sat, 27 Oct 2012 01:16:35 +0000
sireel 9718@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I'm glad I learned my scales and modes thoroughly. I wish I didn't spend as much time practicing them as I used to, but I think you should learn them and then develop your playing around what you hear. Learning your scales can open up all the doors to chords and harmony.</p> <p>Singing what you play is certainly helpful, and it keeps you from just running scales when you improvise. I'm not sure if anyone here knows about Hal Galper and his concept of forward motion. It outlines how to aim for certain notes on certain beats. Possibly this is a topic for another thread, but the idea is that your lines can have an inner melody based on chord tones that land on the strong beats, one and three, and this indicates the harmony regardless of what scales you may be drawing from at the time. In other words, there's an inner logic to good sounding lines and it's not based on scales..</p> <p>Didn't Charlie Parker say to learn all your theory and then forget it? Even if you don't know your scales and modes, you need to have an understanding of harmony to be able to communicate with other musicians. </p>
docbop on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9699
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Fri, 26 Oct 2012 10:04:04 +0000
docbop 9699@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Scales and ears go together one is the way to practice the other. I would say scales aren't the problem its how people practice scales that is the problem. Once you have a scale under you fingers you need to focus on making music with the scale, playing the scale in a musical way. Also sing what you play to get that scale/ear connection going. Long term it's about ear and playing what you hear in your head, but practicing scales and other things are part of getting those sounds into your ear and cataloged in your brain. </p>
patfarlow on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9676
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Thu, 25 Oct 2012 22:36:26 +0000
patfarlow 9676@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I wonder what Kurt would say. On one hand he obviously practices basic harmony very hard and very efficiently. Yet he also mentions metaphysical ideas like catching a comet and riding to the altar of music.....So I have no idea.. </p>
gleepglop on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9675
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Thu, 25 Oct 2012 20:34:13 +0000
gleepglop 9675@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I think there can be confusion about "studying" something versus "learning" it. Bill Evans can illuminate: he said he never studied scales, he learned them by playing music (meaning written music, primarily Bach and Chopin). </p> <p>When someone says "don't learn scales" what they often mean (whether they know it or not) is "don't use your practice time to <em>study</em> scales" mixed with "don't use scale theory as a substitute for listening and learning <em>sounds</em>". In other words, you should learn them by learning music. But you still need to, in one form or another, learn them. </p> <p>I do think that from a purely technical standpoint on the guitar, you do need to spend some time investigating the peculiarities of fingering presented by different scale options.</p> <p>I also think that everyone is different and it's a good idea to try to find what works for you. </p>
mwtzzz on "Ear or Scales? ( Deep Topic )" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/ears-or-scales-deep-topic#post-9674
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Thu, 25 Oct 2012 17:26:42 +0000
mwtzzz 9674@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Playing by ear only is just as bad advice as using scales only. The proper way to learn is both together - in tandem. As you learn harmony you train your ear. As your ear gets better, so do your improvisational skills. It's not just one or the other. </p>
jorgemg1984 on "Suggested Listening for Fluidity" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/suggested-listening-for-fluidity#post-6333
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Tue, 17 Jan 2012 22:04:21 +0000
jorgemg1984 6333@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I would say any solo on "Chet Baker Sings" is perfect as an entrance in the jazz world. Pretty simple and timeless. (I actually transcribed all Chet's solos and all the harmonies on that record some years ago) </p>
Basile865 on "Suggested Listening for Fluidity" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/suggested-listening-for-fluidity#post-6332
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Tue, 17 Jan 2012 21:34:25 +0000
Basile865 6332@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Guys thanks so much I really appreciate it....that Clifford Brown sounds definitely like a good thing to transcribe to get my brain eased into it </p>