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The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Topic: Critique my summer practice plan, please! http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ The Kurt Rosenwinkel Forum » Topic: Critique my summer practice plan, please! en Wed, 29 Jun 2016 16:18:28 +0000 silverwater on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-5005
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Fri, 01 Jul 2011 23:36:47 +0000
silverwater 5005@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>&quot;silverwater, I think this kind of chords come from a vertical harmony, that&#39;s why I chose to show an example with a voice moving. Don&#39;t we see A7sus | A7 all the time on charts? It&#39;s the same, a voice that moves and produces other chords. They&#39;re not usually notated, but who says that we can&#39;t do it?&quot;</p> <p>Yeah I hear what you&#39;re saying, and from a chord comper&#39;s perspective your progression of Cmaj7b5 | Cmaj7 | Am9/C makes sense a lot of sense to write it out that way. </p> <p>However I again must assert the need to recognize modally what is taking place here: Movement of the top voice through the Lydian mode, over a Cmaj7 chord. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-5003
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Fri, 01 Jul 2011 16:29:39 +0000
JorgeRubiales 5003@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Mmm, intravenous caffeine.... </p>
Floatingbridge on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-5001
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Fri, 01 Jul 2011 15:58:44 +0000
Floatingbridge 5001@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>true that gleepbop. just dont stop drinking coffee in the first place. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4998
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Fri, 01 Jul 2011 12:28:33 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4998@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Man, really, I have to stop writing before coffee... </p>
gleepglop on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4996
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Fri, 01 Jul 2011 11:03:40 +0000
gleepglop 4996@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>6th degree of melodic minor is m7b5, Floatingbridge was saying that 6th degree of harmonic minor is maj7b5 (actually maj7b5#9) </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4995
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Fri, 01 Jul 2011 03:51:17 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4995@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Whoa! I totally missed that one! I had a typo in my notes, and wrote m7b5 off the 6th degree melodic minor scale, when it&#39;s a maj7b5 </p>
Floatingbridge on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4992
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Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:55:18 +0000
Floatingbridge 4992@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>not that bad, just voice lead period ; some positions will put you in the inversions you like for certain chords.<br /> incidentally,maj7b5 can also be used for 6th mode of harmonic minor. A harmonic minor( Fmaj7b5). not common, just another use. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4988
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Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:57:52 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4988@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hahah I did!! I really like the m7#5 sound, but you really have to voice lead well to make that diminished fit in there. Cool sounding, it reminds me of a song from Brian Blade&#39;s fellowship, don&#39;t remember the name though. </p>
Floatingbridge on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4987
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Thu, 30 Jun 2011 15:18:24 +0000
Floatingbridge 4987@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>... you WON&#39;T look at it because the power of the forum is far more compelling. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4984
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Thu, 30 Jun 2011 07:59:53 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4984@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Floatingbridge, I can&#39;t look at that progression right now, but I&#39;ll play it this afternoon and tell you what I hear ;)</p> <p>silverwater, I think this kind of chords come from a vertical harmony, that&#39;s why I chose to show an example with a voice moving. Don&#39;t we see A7sus | A7 all the time on charts? It&#39;s the same, a voice that moves and produces other chords. They&#39;re not usually notated, but who says that we can&#39;t do it? </p>
Floatingbridge on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4982
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Thu, 30 Jun 2011 01:27:16 +0000
Floatingbridge 4982@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>... ( just to ruin your plans for getting rid of those 3 chords) try these instead of ( or over a ii V I in C):</p> <p>Dmin7# 5 ( or Amn7#5) / Fºmaj7 ( or Bºmaj7 ) / Cmaj7b5. </p>
silverwater on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4981
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Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:38:31 +0000
silverwater 4981@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Jorgemg1984: &quot;...and the #11 is much more important then 5 but its not replacing it!&quot;</p> <p>I agree with that 100%, and I think it has been the source of a lot of confusion with leadsheet makers. When people comping 3-4 note chords over the years have avoided the 5th and replaced it with the spicier #11, it&#39;s caused transcribers to just write down &quot;b5&quot;. </p> <p>And I also agree that the 5 is not an avoid note on either a maj7#11 or a dom7#11, especially as a soloist. </p> <p>I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever seen a &quot;real majb5&quot; chord on a jazz chart. Modally speaking, it&#39;s bizarre, because by definition, it MUST create a sequence of 3 notes, each a semitone apart: M3,P4,b5. Even in the Eastern scales of Double Harmonic Major and Double Harmonic Minor, which have 2 semitones back to back, you can&#39;t stack any sequence of thirds directly on top of each other to create a maj7b5 chord.</p> <p>JorgeRubiales: I&#39;ve never seen this book by Brett Wilmont, but I&#39;m sure his &quot;maj7b5&quot; are just chords for the Lydian mode. </p>
jorgemg1984 on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4980
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Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:59:17 +0000
jorgemg1984 4980@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Actually chord notation is very confuse and both real books and aebersolds are horrible in that particular. #11 is not the fifht note of lydian or lydian dominant, its the fourth. The fith is 5.</p> <p>Jorge I think voice leading doesnt justify that notation. If you have the 11 of a minor chord going to the fifth do you notate Cm7(4) Cm7?</p> <p>I think extensions should always be notated as they are (9 11 13). There are some exceptions, usually when you put C6 it means the 7 is not present and the 6 is a chord tone and when you put Cmaj7(13) you will have both. This also happens with triads sus2 and sus4, 3 is not present and 2 and 4 are the structural notes.</p> <p>I dont see the 5 as being an avoid note on a #11 chord, i do 5 7 (or b7) 3 #11 voicing a lot on this chords (and kurt also btw), obviously they clash if played as a minor 2nd (even 7 and 1 and lots of other examples) and the #11 is much more important then 5 but its not replacing it! b5 exists on m7b5 chords where you have a 11 and the b5 is the fifth note of the scale.</p> <p>The altered scale ins the only dubious to me because its such a special scale - in theory you would spell with 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 but in real life it means 1 b2 #2 3 #4 b6 b7 or 1 b2 #2 3 b5 #5 b7. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4979
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Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:31:04 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4979@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>We&#39;re talkin Maj7b5 here, so no dominant chord. I don&#39;t think it refers neither to a Maj7#11.</p> <p>I took this from Brett Willmot&#39;s book, and it&#39;s organized in seventh chords, and then tensions. This is the 7th chord section, so no reason to assume #11</p> <p>I agree with silverwater that most of the time we see it on a chart, it really means maj7#11, but we should be careful and not eliminate the chance to find a &quot;real&quot; maj7b5 chord, for example in inner voice movement type of progressions, maybe like this: Cmaj7b5 | Cmaj7 | Am9/C<br /> (the b5 moving up). </p>
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Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:16:53 +0000
gleepglop 4978@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>It depends, if you&#39;re in the key of F and B7b5 shows up, it&#39;s really b5, not #11. If you have non-tonal harmony, then it often makes more sense to describe the actual chord (which is b5), since #11 implies a scale choice that may unnecessarily restrict the improviser. </p> <p>In the end, both symbols are valid and improvisers/accompanists need to use their judgment as to how they interpret them.</p> <p>As a composer, I tend to prefer the &quot;b5&quot; symbol unless I specifically want a #11. For me, it comes down to whether I hear the b5/#11 as a chord tone or an extension. </p>
silverwater on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4976
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Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:47:07 +0000
silverwater 4976@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Yeah jorgemg1984, that&#39;s what I was trying to get at. I don&#39;t think I&#39;ve ever seen a major7b5 chord on a chart that wasn&#39;t really meant to be labeled a maj7#11. I think it it&#39;s just the old way of making leadsheet notation, similar to how you see Dom7b5 on old charts, when you really know they mean #11. (ala Beautiful Love, Bernies tune, etc). </p> <p>I think the &quot;b5&quot; labeling in those charts was just to let the chord player know to substitute the 5th with the #11, either that or the transcribers didn&#39;t know the difference. But the 5th was substituted for to avoid playing the #11 in a higher register, to leave the soloist the option of playing the natural 5th and not have it me just a minor second away. </p> <p> C Maj 7 b5...C D E F Gb A B...that would be a pretty unusual sound, even for someone like myself that gravitates towards unusual sounds. </p> <p>Summary:</p> <p>&quot;Cmaj7b5&quot; on a chart =Cmaj7#11=C Lydian</p> <p>&quot;C7b5&quot; on a chart (usually) =C7#11=C Lyd. Dominant </p>
jorgemg1984 on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4971
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Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:30:33 +0000
jorgemg1984 4971@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>The name should be #11 because the chord has a perfect 5, the b5 is used on chords without a perfect 5. Thats a great a chord to play all the triads contained on the 1 3 5 7 9 #11 13, specially UST. The pentatonic half-step before (Bm7 on Cmaj7#11) is also a great choice - Time Remembered by Bill Evans is a good tune to deal with those chords and Chris Cheek solo (&quot;I Wish I Knew&quot; CD) is brilliant. </p>
silverwater on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4970
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Mon, 27 Jun 2011 20:02:43 +0000
silverwater 4970@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>98% of the time when a maj7#11 chord pops up on a chart, I don&#39;t play the 5th in my chord voicing, so I&#39;m effectively playing a maj7b5 chord. The 5th is probably last my (and a lot of others&#39;) list of tones to play in a voicing when I run across a maj7#11 chord, I&#39;m more interested in the playing a 3rd, 7th, #11, root, 9th, and even a 13th before I play a 5th, at least when it comes to voicing the chord. </p> <p>I&#39;m telling ya dude they&#39;re worth investing in...maybe it doesn&#39;t seem that way now, but the more you progress the more you&#39;re going to be playing with people that will call tunes from the 60s like the ones by Wayne and Joe that have that sound.</p> <p>I hope I&#39;m not being annoying, it&#39;s certainly not my intention, but here&#39;s what I would do if were in your situation: </p> <p>Scratch the m(maj7) off your list and add maj7b5 to your list (keeping in mind that they&#39;re really to played for maj7#11). </p> <p>I&#39;d choose the m(maj7) to axe because if you&#39;re going to learn maj7#5 voicings, then you&#39;re already learning a superior Herbie-esque voicing to play over a m(maj7) chord. You just play your maj7#5 voicing a minor third up from the root of the m(maj7) chord. </p> <p>For example, is the chart calls for a Bm(maj7) chord, play a Dmaj7#5, or if it calls for a Gm(maj7), play a Bbmaj7#5 chord. (I chose these two chords because it&#39;s exactly what Herbie does on Pinocchio) </p> <p>Just my two cents. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please/page/2#post-4968
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Mon, 27 Jun 2011 07:50:55 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4968@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Strictly speaking, those are #11, not b5 chords. I have already one or two vocings for those, but right now I think it&#39;s no a necessary investment to learn four inversions over two sets of strings of a chord that doesn&#39;t appear that much compared to the others I&#39;m ging to practice.</p> <p>I didn&#39;t mean I won&#39;t eventually learn every chord in every inversion, but this is a 6 month goal, and I&#39;ll have to pass an audition, so I need to focus. </p>
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Sun, 26 Jun 2011 23:47:17 +0000
silverwater 4965@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Not going to practice maj7b5 (Lydian) chords? That kind of eliminates you from playing most tunes by Joe Henderson, Woody Shaw, Wayne Shorter, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock...</p> <p>Not to mention that it works really well on the IV chord, and any Maj7 chord with a non-diatonic root...most soloists will play Lydian on these chords, even if the chart doesn&#39;t specifically call for it. </p>
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Sun, 26 Jun 2011 21:27:00 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4963@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Well, after meeting my teacher and your advice, I&#39;ve come up with a pretty good list for a 6 month practice.</p> <p>ITEMS</p> <p>- m7b5 arpeggio<br /> - harmonic minor, melodic minor and diminished scale<br /> - drop 2 vocings 1234 and 2345 strings of: maj7, m7, 7, m7b5, maj7#5, m6, 6, 7#5, 7b5, 7sus4, dim7, m(maj7)<br /> - improvising using chord tones only over &quot;what is this thing called love&quot;, &quot;i got rhythm&quot;, &quot;yardbird suite&quot; and similar.<br /> - chord melody: learn arrangements for Waltz for Debbie and Time Remembered<br /> - A bach violin sonata without open strings.<br /> - ear training: all intervals up to an octave; chords up to seventh, all inversions.<br /> - Transcription (many tunes, I need gigs and will be from all kind of styles)</p> <p>We&#39;ve decided to drop m7#5, maj7b5 and dim(maj7) vocings from the chord list, because they&#39;re kind of &quot;special&quot; chords, in the sense that you don&#39;t see them often in charts. Also, he told me to put emphasis on practicing over tunes, so as long as I can play some exercise slowly but clean, I take it to a tune (or a fragment), in various keys.</p> <p>I think I&#39;m sticking to this as strictly as I can, and I&#39;ll tell you on december how it went. If anyone wants to go on this one with me, tell how is it going for you! </p>
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Fri, 17 Jun 2011 05:17:30 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4879@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Floatingbridge, what you mean is that most of my goals are explained in brett willmot&#39;s book? That&#39;s because I&#39;m studying from that one heheh. I haven&#39;t come to the chapter when they talk about substitutions etc. but it&#39;s nice to know that there&#39;s more to study there ^_^</p> <p>By diatonic substitution I mean subbing chords of the same function (in C, subbing Em or Am for C, and that might include sevenths).</p> <p>It think piano players tend to sound more advanced harmonically because they tend to integrate the melody inside the chord, and that&#39;s more difficult to us poor guitar players. But hey, they can&#39;t bend a note, can&#39;t they? lol </p>
Floatingbridge on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4877
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Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:05:56 +0000
Floatingbridge 4877@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>not sure either. diatonic implies that it&#39;s coming from somewhere within the same scale though so perhaps something like using Bmin7b5 for G7... which is a way to play a rootless voicing of a 9th chord.maybe ? evans does really cool things . i learned minority from his &quot; everybody digs bill evans &quot; cd with sam and philly joe jones. i dont think i had ever heard the song before or anything by gigi gryce ( well probably only the larger monk ensembles from those videos where phil woods is there too). the intro and fire and energy is so alive and strong- it was super intriguing . to the point where i would just keep restarting the damn song over and over again , really really really trying to imagine that the moment hadnt existed yet and there were three dudes in a room ( probably with skinny ties and cigarettes and charts and all that cool recording room stuff) about to make that thing! it for some reason really floored me and i had to try to learn it. after seeing the chart in the real book it dawned on me how heavy bill evans was because of his harmonic sense and choices. right off the bat, the chord is a min7 chord and the melody note is the 9; he plays a maj7#5 chord off of the min3rd of that original min7 chord- in other words, he he gets his melody note in and turns the chord into a min/maj9 which makes it a harm or mel minor tonality. after words there is all kinds of really cool inner line stuff and some things they worked out ( an arrangement ) and the solo - he is totally controlburn. </p>
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Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:19:01 +0000
gleepglop 4876@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Hey Jorge, I&#39;m not sure what your asking about &quot;diatonic substitution&quot;. </p>
Floatingbridge on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4875
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Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:19:39 +0000
Floatingbridge 4875@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>... this is all laid out thoroughly and clearly in brett wilmott&#39;s bool &quot; complete book of harmony,theory and voicing&quot; which i&#39;ve been working through and i feel finally organizes the material ( already seen in the triad over bass section of the advancing guitarist and perhaps is a more succinct delivery of those particular concepts found in parts of van eps&#39;s series too).<br /> when i say it&#39;s all laid out, i mean:<br /> the 15 7th type chords.<br /> the 2345 ( ... just graph out the other sets too ).<br /> the drop 2s<br /> the various sub for 1s and 5s<br /> ...seriously. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4874
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Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:42:19 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4874@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>Thanks for that post gleepglop! Seems too advanced for the stuff I&#39;m practicing right now, but definitely worth checking out, if only for voice leading up the neck.</p> <p>How is Evans&#39; system from diatonic substitution? </p>
gleepglop on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4867
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Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:08:04 +0000
gleepglop 4867@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I agree with the above posters to add in some ear training and transcribing, and would include singing in both of those categories.</p> <p>And while learning drop2 voicings is essential, I&#39;d suggest also working out the &#39;bill evans&#39; type rootless voicings on the 1234 and 2345 string sets for standard progressions. While the actual piano voicings are all close, only some of these can be played on guitar, so you have to make them into open voicings, which means they will be identical to drop 2 voicings but for a different chord.<br /> For example, your typical Ebmaj7 voicing Eb - Bb - D - G would be a rootless voicing for Cm9.<br /> You can voice-lead from there to F13#9: Eb - A - D - G#<br /> And to Bbmaj13: D A C G</p> <p>etc.</p> <p>If you&#39;re not familiar with the &quot;Evans&quot; system, it&#39;s basically this:<br /> Using 1357, you can sub 9 for 1, and 13 for 5 on any chord where the result makes sense.<br /> On Maj7 chords or tonic minor chords, you can sub 6 for 7<br /> (mostly) voice the 3rd or 7th as the lowest note (i.e., 3571 and 7135 are the most common before substitutions)<br /> On circle of 5ths motion, 3rds and 7ths alternate for good voice leading.</p> <p>chords with the 1357 or 5731 (or subs) structure often make good transition chords when the motion is not by circle of 5ths, or if you want to voice lead up instead of down (for melodic reasons), or sometimes if you want to transition between close and open voicings. </p> <p>Getting this together will make a huge difference in your comping. </p>
JorgeRubiales on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4866
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Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:50:15 +0000
JorgeRubiales 4866@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I&#39;m a lot into John Pizarelli lately, might transcribe something from him too. Seems very tonal and straightforward... </p>
jorgemg1984 on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4864
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Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:06:54 +0000
jorgemg1984 4864@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>I have transcribed that one - but the comping not the solo actually. His comp behind Petrucciani is outrageous but transcribing comping is tough for the ear... I wil transcribe Petrucciani solo, not decided about Jim yet - but that was a great choice Jorge :)</p> <p>Matt - I am with you, hate most traditional players sound, feel, time, phrasing.. but Jim is THE MAN! </p>
Matt on "Critique my summer practice plan, please!" http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/topic/critique-my-summer-practice-plan-please#post-4862
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Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:39:24 +0000
Matt 4862@http://www.kurtrosenwinkel.com/forum/ <p>oh yeah! Jim Hall&#39;s the man. maybe do a horn, too; although Jim is an exception, many guitarists have terrible feel. </p>