abstract from another forum

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  1. hey,
    this is from a forum thingie called thegearpage.net.
    this ( i believe ) from either an interview or an assumed regiment that ben monder presents to his students.
    while the upper 2/3 of the suggestions makes sense to me , there is a section at the end that suggests a method for organizing the study of arpeggi
    with a table of cells prescribing how many notes per string (e.g.: 112 121 112 22 etc.. ) while i get what the cells means , i don't understand why they are restated . the description doesnt make it clear as to how to use this table.
    basically, other than the individual cells cruising up a string set, i don't get the table - they seem like redundancies.
    if anyone can better explain this that would be great. thank you.

    A term for what you want is Chord Synonyms. Here's a page from Ben Monder that should keep you buy for a few years. It's what he sends people who ask him for lessons. I guess he's not so into teaching, so he offers this to people who ask. Pretty generous, I think:

    "Be able to move a triad through the major, harmonic minor and melodic minor scales. Play triads in root position, 1st and 2nd inversion, and in close and open position on as many string groups as apply. Experiment with arpeggiating it in different note orders as well as playing the notes simultaneously. Then work on moving a triad through a set of chord changes, adjusting for the scale as needed.

    C Major 7

    CEGB EGBC GBCE BCEG

    CGBE EBCG GCEB BEGC

    CBEG ECGB GEBC BGCE

    CGEB EBGC GCBE BECG

    CEBG EGCB GBEC BCGE

    CBGE ECBG GECB BGEC

    Take all these voicings up and down through the major scale,
    then practice voice leading them through different cycles
    (5th, 3rd, etc). Mick Goodrick's voice leading almanac is good for this.

    Write this chart out for all 7th chords:

    Maj7-5
    Maj7#5
    Min 7
    MinMaj7
    Min7-5
    Dom7
    Dom7-5
    Dom7#5

    Then, experiment with replacing different chord tones with other scale degrees, eg. the 2nd for the 3rd (CDGB, DGBC, etc.)

    Limit yourself to one voicing type at a time, and work your way through a tune playing a different inversion on every beat. Cover all possible string groups that apply to each voicing. Make sure to go to the nearest available voicing when the harmony changes

    Learn as many uses for each 7th chord (as a superimposition over a bass note) as you can.
    Take each chord and make a list:

    CMaj 7 = Dsus13 = Eb13b9#5 = FMaj9#11 = AbMaj7#9#5 = Amin9

    CMaj7b5 = D13 = FMaj7#11b9 = F#ø11 = Ab7#9#5 = Amin13 = Bsusb9

    CMaj7#5 = D13b5 = FminMaj7#11 = F#ø9/11 = AminMaj9 = BPhryg Natural 6

    C7 = Db dim Maj7 = Dsus9b6 = Eb13b9 = FMaj9sus4 = F#7b9b5 = AbMaj9#5 = A7#9b9

    C7b5 = D+9 = Eb13#9b9 = F#7b5 = Ab+9 = A13#9b9

    C7#5 = D+9b5(can also be thought of as ø) = F#9b5 = Ab+9

    C7sus4 = DbMaj6b5 = Dmin11b6 = Eb6/9 = F#Maj7b5b9 = AbMaj13 = APhryg(min7b9b6) = BMaj7b5#5b9(!?)

    Cmin7 = Db Maj13b5 = DPhryg(min11b9b6) = Eb6 = EminMaj7b5b6 = Fsus9 = AbMaj9 = A7b5#9b9 = BMaj7#5b9

    Cmin7b5 = D7b9#5 = Ebmin6 = EMaj9b5#5 = F7sus4b9 = Ab9 = BMaj7b9

    CminMaj7 = Dsus13b9 = EminMaj7#5 = F9#11 = AbMaj7#9 = Aø9

    Create chords out of consistent intervallic structures. For example, a four note chord built on the intervals 4th, 2nd, 5th, starting on F in the F mixolydian mode would be F Bb C G. Move that structure up to the next scale degree and the chord is G C D A, then A D Eb Bb, etc.
    Use this idea to come up with a variety of structures built on 3 to 6 notes and take them through various scales.
    Then practice voice leading between structures, and over moving harmony. Don't forget to apply melodic and harmonic minor, as well as other 7 note scales.

    Arpeggio Fingerings:

    *Each number represents notes per string, each cell represents one octave. Always start on the 6th string, and start the second octave on the same string (in most cases, the 4th) you ended the first octave on.
    For example, 112 means one note on the 6th string, one on the 5th, and two on the 4th.

    112 112 121 112 211 112 22 112 1111 112
    112 121 121 121 211 121 22 121 1111 121
    112 211 121 211 211 211 22 211 1111 211
    112 22 121 22 211 22 22 22 1111 22
    112 1111 121 1111 211 1111 22 1111

    As a warm up, play a scale with the metronome on 20 (or lower, even 10) and play one note per click. Do this through every position of the scale, trying to be as accurate as possible. Try to be even and legato (even though you are attacking every note). Then put the metronome on 5 or 10 and have that be the first beat of an 8 or 4 bar cycle. Improvise over a tune this way and see how accurate you can be."
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  2. Matt
    Member

    Ben once emailed me those metronome exercises at the bottom, but jesus....looks like this'll be in the shed for a while :)
    Ben is such a monster. I can't even believe how much he has practiced. 'so killing'

    aslo, what is the difference between closed and open position?>

  3. closed is within an octave; open is larger than an octave .
    a 3rd is closed; a 10th is open

  4. Matt
    Member

    you'd think i'd know that....
    but holy poop, that's such a infinite thing to practice!

  5. harmnobean
    Member

    The way it's laid out there makes the arpeggios look pretty confusing. Basically, he is showing all the fingering possibilities for a two octave arpeggio. He does this by taking each of the possible one octave fingerings (112, 121, 211, 22, and 1111) and combining it with another fingering to be used in the second octave. If you look at the chart as four columns, it helps.

    So the first column has every possibility given that the first octave is 112. Going from top to bottom, he's saying you could do 112 in the first octave and 112 in the second octave. Then he has 112 followed by 121, etc. The next column is the same idea, but assuming that the first octave uses 121

    Note that one possibility, 1111-1111 is not on the chart because that would require more than 6 strings.

    Hope that helps a little!

  6. hot damn! thanks harmnobean!!!!!!

  7. harmnobean
    Member

    no problemo!

  8. Poparad
    Member

    Ok, I see. If you make a new line every two, it makes more sense:

    112 112
    121 112
    211 112
    22 112
    1111 112

    112 121
    121 121
    211 121
    22 121
    1111 121

    112 211
    121 211
    211 211
    22 211
    1111 211

    112 22
    121 22
    211 22
    22 22
    1111 22

    112 1111
    121 1111
    211 1111
    22 1111

  9. Poparad
    Member

    Just to add my two cents to Ben's ideas, something I've been working on for a while now:

    If you take the six voicings with their inversions that are listed, Ben mentions experimenting with moving some of the notes around, like changing the 3rds to 2nds. It turns out that there's really only 5 changes you can make to the voicings. I'll take drop 2, for example, since most people know it well:

    CGBE EBCG GCEB BEGC

    These are the 5 groups (written as drop 2 voicings):
    1) R-3-7-2
    2) R-4-7-2
    3) R-5-7-2
    4) R-5-7-3 (which is what's listed above)
    5) R-5-7-4

    Let's take group 3, which is just one note different than group 4 (that's the logic to my numbering of the groups; each group is only one note different than the next one). For this one, just take all of the 3rds (Es if we stick with C major like above) and change them to 2nds (Ds):

    CGBD DBCG GCDB BDGC

    Here's the slight twist to it:

    Let's take the three inversions and tranpose them all down the C major scale so that they're all built off C as the lowest voice:

    CABF CFGE CEAD

    All four of these inversions (including the original root position one) form four different voicings which are all related to each other, and all have a similar sound. You can then take these and build them off different notes of the scale, but they'll all have this similar quality to them.

  10. ...always puttin the rad in poparad.

  11. jbroad
    Member

    also, if i may add, check out the mick goodrick alamanacs of guitar voice leading for more fun and enjoyment. you won't sleep for years!

  12. Poparad,
    question for you.
    just to make sure i am doing this right:

    the 112 112 one
    should i do it like this:

    notes:(C,E,GB)(C,E,GB)
    strings:(6,5,4&4)(4,3,2&2)
    fingering(3,2,1&3)(3,2,1&4) ,yes?

  13. Poparad
    Member

    That's pretty much what I came up with, reading through it, though I used my 4th instead of 3rd for the 4th and 5th notes (B and C right at the change in octaves).

  14. thank you.

  15. filters
    Member

    didn't know KR forum became a forum about quantum physics

  16. great article from ben! thanks for posting. poparad's 5 groups would be named 1)spread cluster 2)triad over bass note I 3) triad over bass note II 4) 7th 5) 4th. so many chords, so much fun.

  17. ben's superimpositions are great and im sure he left some out on purpose but im surprised he doesn't name any dominant 7 with the natural 7 chords. kurt seems to be a fan of these.

  18. Poparad
    Member

    Smith: Those names are good for the root position ones, but as soon as you start working with the inversions, they don't fit as nicely. For example, the two triad over bass note groups, when used in different inversions, end up functioning as add9 or add4 voicings when played from the root. Then, if you take those and move them to other chord tones, they take on yet another perspective.


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