alternate vs economy...again

(17 posts)
  1. cruxtable
    Member

    I've been attempting to switch my technique from alternating to economy, since I do this already going from high to low, but not low to high...I've mentioned this already on another post...but I've been seeing a lot of evidence that a lot of guitarists are using strict alternate picking...does anybody know what kind of technique guys like Moreno, Monder, Lage, Gilad, etc. are using? I recently saw a video of Kurt saying he tries to do everything strictly alternating... I'm trying to figure out if I'm going down the wrong path here if everyone whose sound I like is alternating...

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  2. jazzacast55
    Member

    Pretty sure Kurt does a mixture, not strict alternate, same for Moreno mixture of picking and legato, Gilad plays more legato then anything else from what I've noticed, Lage Lund uses economy picking for sure, more then the rest at least.
    Don't lock yourself in to one or the other, some lines are easily played as economy or sweep, then there is the effect factor, how you want it to come out, stacatto or legato? use your ears and I would suggest practicing for say half an hour with a metronome and try playing constant 8th notes for as long as you can with out stopping, try it with triplets as well, don't worry about scales or tonality just play constant notes for as long as you can with out stopping or say 16bars.
    What ever technique you naturally go with to play constantly then I would suggest that.

  3. jorgemg1984
    Member

    I have seen them same video, Kurt playing arpeggios with alternate picking. Tried it and guess what: to me feels much more natural than sweep picking (or economy picking or speed picking, that thing has so many names). Gilad is using much more legatto now than some years ago but I think Kurt is still the one who uses more of that - just listen "View from Moscow" from "The Remedy". Even when I use legatto I alternate a lot, its what works best for me. I may sometimes use only down strokes but its really rare.

    Another important thing is that these guys "hide" their pick really well, specially Monder. Sometimes it feels legatto but its actually alternate stacatto with a barely noticeable attack. I remember once Kurt saying he always practiced stacatto at home but on gigs and records he used legatto a lot. But I think jazzacast55 gave a goo advice, try them all and use them all if you can :)

  4. cruxtable
    Member

    Why do you keep referring to staccato and legato? While alternating vs economy can definitely have a staccato/legato impact on your sound, it's really the player who decides how to sound. You can alternate and still sound legato, a lot of that is in your left hand, but saying someone plays more legato doesn't really tell me anything about what their right hand is doing.

    I think for now I am going to keep at it with economy, since it's already natural for me to do descending, but I'm still wondering whether those guys are using strict economy or alternating approaches in their right hand..

  5. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    If it doesn't affect your playing, don't bother...

    I used to force myself to practice strict alternate picking in many different ways, until I realized I was trying to change my technique to play things I could already play.

    I always use economy picking, as I don't find any advantage on taking practice time to switch to alternate. If that's your case, then spend your time somewhere else.

  6. cruxtable
    Member

    Right now I'm trying to work on economy picking to play things I couldn't play before at all, alternating or economy. I think it was my habit to sometimes alternate and sometimes economy but it was never clean enough.

  7. david6strings
    Member

    i'm strictly alternate picking player. 1 thing i do is play without thinking in pick motion in general ( so alternate as a result) but if i learn something new...lets say a pat martino lick, the i try to learn it economy picking, so i can play a very short thing and learn it faster than if i tried to incorporate the technique to my general playing. then you can see how it works, how it sounds, maybe it like u maybe not. the economy picking i try is in the jimmy bruno way

  8. silverwater
    Member

    Being a product of the Bill Leavitt method books, I started out learning strict alternate picking, and stayed that way for probably ten years. Then I learned how to economy pick, because I'd often cross myself up trying to trying to alternate pick certain lines. But sometimes economy picking can be awkward too.

    Check this line out and tell me how you'd pick it. (all 1/8 notes, quarter note=240)

    |--7-|--------6--5---------|
    |----|--5---5------8-7-5--|
    |----|----6--------------5-|
    |----|----------------------|
    |----|----------------------|
    |----|----------------------|

    This is from an original composition that I had to learn, so there was no getting out of it for me. I decided the best way to pick it was: up, up down down down, up up down up, up.

    People define economy picking as "Always pick in the direction of the new string", so this breaks that when I down pick the third note. But even Frank Gambale, in his "Monster Licks and Speed Picking" book strays from strict economy picking when it makes sense to do so (See P. 13).

    If you do strict alternate picking, wouldn't a line like that cross you up at that tempo?

    So the answer: Learn both ways, that way you'll have options.

  9. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    silverwater, I would pick that one like this: D U U D D U U D U U (the last one may be D if I want to emphasize it specially, or if the line moves somewhere else).

  10. patfarlow
    Member

    you need to be able to do BOTH WELL to be a well rounded picker.
    This is a video on legato and picking that i really liked

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Flash Videos

  11. yaclaus
    Member

    I prefer alternate picking, since it forces you to think rhythmically. Off-beat equals up-stroke. If a line starts on an off-beat I would also start with up in that situation. However generally I donĀ“t see a problem in using all downstrokes on 8-notes.

  12. cruxtable
    Member

    cool video. Does anyone know specifically what kind of right hand technique Mike Moreno or Lage Lund are using?

  13. Matt
    Member

    mike appears to play mostly with economy picking. he used a lot of sweeps at tempos that would be rather impractical to play with alternate picking.

  14. cruxtable
    Member

    make sense...though I believe a lot of the fastest guitar players use only alternate picking, and the tempos aren't a problem for them.

  15. patfarlow
    Member

    benson and django are good examples of economy picking, Chris thile only alternates. All good players

  16. Matt
    Member

    in my experience, i spent a year trying to get perfect technique. i tried every exercise, every thing i thought would work, and i didnt make much progress. now, maybe there were flaws in my practice, but after i started working more with transcription, tunes, hearing music and paying less attention to technique, it improved dramatically. even now, i spend less than 30min a day on tech. i try more to focus relaxation when i play than anything else.

  17. david6strings
    Member

    yes i think matt is right. just playing music and transcribing maybe is the best and most funny thing u can do. when you can play 80 per cent of a piece and maybe a phrase just can't sound succesully then you can work on that later.

    for exemple 1 of the phrases that always seems impossible to me is in the melody of moose the mooche omnibook version. i try to practice that as an exercise


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