I challenge you, brothers of jazz.
post a sicker display of cleanly picking
legato don't count
I challenge you, brothers of jazz.
post a sicker display of cleanly picking
legato don't count
It seems kind of like a silly " challenge " . Why not just " wow, check out oberg he rips " ? This is just going to lead us down some path of super guitar centric shit and away from a sound and vibe from an instrument ; right back to even useless aspects of minutae. This whole al dimeola shirts storm of speed ( ... And i dare say at the expense of interesting harmonic, vibe, rhytmicand yes even melodic content). But i guess we are there .
Check out this video on YouTube:
Check out this video on YouTube:
I guess anything w paco
i'm surprised if he is actually picking eevery note, i find it hard to swing w/o articulating only the upbeats.
dont think oberg really does anything technically astounding.
The concepts hes employing aren't difficult to understand. Actually executing them precisely however, places him in an elite percentile. Perhaps that's why you listed other exceptional players.
and it's a challenge because i like a good challenge! why shy away from controversy? gotta admit Floatingbridge and matt those are sick players you posted.
Matt i am a HUGE fan of using the technique you mentioned for swing music: attacking the upbeat and slurring the downbeat. I call this "bebop articulations" and I really think most guitar players are not aware of this. HOWEVER I have realized you do need sometimes to have a good stacatto techinque. When lines have wide intervals, lots of string chagnes or just a lot of direction changes stacatto is inevitable. Also on 16th notes or triplets stacatto is sometimes essential to do good accents or just to keep a good time. I am playing a Keith Jarrett solo that is 80% unplayable using legatto...
Floating bridge that McLaughin video is out of this world! I have seen it some years ago, you really need a gigantic pair of balls to play cherokke that fast with a big band on a live show...
Yeah. He is great. I've never seen him live. I will say I think he really shines on acoustic guitar ... Most of his solid body electric stuff ( from the past 20-30 years) actually kind of pisses me off for being so messy and out of tune. The other thing I forgot to mention with the berg clip is ( and don't get me wrong - he is a really impeccable guitar player doing the benson and the DJango and really knowing contextual things) the band is swinging and fast and all but there really are NO changes to be made ; there is a tonal center and it is a vamp and it isn't really being deviated from and any " super imposition " is at will and by choice (... This is where I take issue with this type of pyro shit ; it's guitar centric and to the point where it wouldn't matter who he is playing with or what - he has these 800 licks he needs to burn through tonight and nothing or nobody will stop him. I am shying away from this, i still like speed but i really find fire in cool ideas honestly chosen in the moment and a narrative quality or dense harmonic logic ( like monder ) or just some unwavering conviction in the development of ideas and dealing with others.things that would be cool coming from any instrument ).I may need to reevaluate my opinions but I have also felt this way about certain aspects of the martino catalogue aswell). McLaughlin as we know IS dealing with changes aside from ripping- also the rhythmic feel of his arrangement and the way he phrases the melody - he is stating it but there is some subtle displacement that shows perhaps some nuance and flexibility gained from Indian music studies. I don't think I've heard cherokee phrased that way and I think it would get heads turning from anyone else yet any grandma who danced to it in her day would say that it's Cherokee .
I also don't like everything he plays but the guy is a phenomenal musician. And he was a really important and influential guy back in the days although most people don't know that these days. Not only his work with Miles but specially with the band that actually started it all - Tony Wiliiams Lifetime.
About Oberg... He obviously has good technique but not phenomenal - his sound is OK at best. He can play fast, he knows zillions of licks and that's it actually.. There are tons of guitar players like him, its like a cult or something like that. I am not even go the innovation / own voice discussion - but the guy is not worried about telling a story in his solo and that's something I really don't like (and I also dont mind he is a stylist, there are lots of stylists I do like)
I always go back to this video
Martino is probably the guy for players like Oberg - although he is a much better player of course. But this video to me sums it all up - Martino just doesn't stop playing, he doesn't build a solo, a motif, a story. And then gets Scofield... talk about building a solo! His phrases are always a consequence of the last one and he recalls the meoldy a lot - basically he is not just playing changes and he is worried about going from point A to point B.
Oh, my negative stuff was about the berg clip. The McLaughlin complaint was really limited to post 70's electric
floatingbridge mentioned monder and i'll say Monder is one of the greatest ever. the way he can play chords, with those crazy voicings, and build a great solo and get gritty and fast, i mean, you cant hardly ask for more.
allan holdsworth, albeit all legato, is another player in that vein. he can shred with the best, and fastest, but his ideas and builds are so fantastic.
Jorgemg, I just heard that now ... So true. Although, it's quite seductive the way martino clearly picks ( with conviction ) each solidly logical and complete little lick . Each one is a cool lick . Dynamically , it's all flat and the same . And that's part of his aesthetic and every smooth guy wishes he could do it that well. Clear articulate machine guns pelting you with marshmallows of tone with slihtly sharper corners- all at roughly the same speed and pressure. That one lick that he has always done ( or that idea to drill you with a brief passage for a couple chorus wears thin sometimes. The first time I heard him do it was on the album strings. My first experience with him. It's very . Wow... He really is doing that... He REALLY is doing that ( good for him , see ? )... Hmm those guys are just shoveling along against this... Hmm. And what sucks is that it's effect is really in that the thing stops at some point (... Less about that it was the payoff of getting somewhere else ). The sco solo on the other hand, couldn't agree more.
Yes Matt, I feel you on both the monder and holdsworth comments. I wish holdsworth didn't mind the sound of chords coming from the guitar ( like if it just sounded like guitar instead of pastel light shot through fog ... It's tough to hear all the voices and judging by his hands it's cooler than the couple voices I'm hearing first ). Early days and live stuff shows this side better but the earlier stuff does not reach this Coltrane quality he has now ( which is quite inspiring actually... Mean sure , he is a total genius but he has exponentially blown himself out of the water over the years ... Knowing that makes me hopeful and excited for potentially being able to get to a better place in playing and understanding ).
One thing that boggles me about him though ( and I feel weird getting into it because I don't know him and it's not really any of my deal ) but I find it weird that there hasn't been too much new material from him. Respectfully, yes there is a wealth of nuance and variety in comparing youtubed footage of any tune of his over the years in regards to vibe and soloing but is it booze or depression or something? Yes, it maybe more surprising than people may think and I don't know his economic situation., but he tours and is able to pay his dudes. He lives somewhere and his kids are adults , right? I'm sure daily life is somewhat expensive , but I feel like over the decades ( vai has signed him for a pending album , perhaps potentially other avenues to make cash or tour or something that doesn't feel sell outish or something... He invented a goddamn beer draughts tap thing that he gets revenue from and apparently bars in San Diego use it !... He just seems extremely genius, resourceful, and tediously devoted and curious and down to improve ). I just don't really understand the ( what I am seeing as ) mega compositional / album hiatus ( yet touring ) of this legend. His dudes probably are super stoked to be with him and tour but you know they would all be so stoked if Allan called and said " ok there is some new shit and it's heavy , get ready and put on your ears and pra ticking cap and come transcribe my crazy symbols and make your own sense of this because this tour is the new shit'! That would be really exciting, right? It makes me curious and a little sad, but I still am very glad that he exists and has made what he has and will be happy to see him when he comes around.
yeah, i agree. i read a few interviews with him and he has said that for him playing the guitar is pretty tough because he'll pick it up for an hour and might get frustrated or upset and have to put it down for a while until he's mentally ready, or so i interpreted it. i think he's very hard on himself, not that everyone isn't but i think there's a line between striving for higher abilites and debasing your achievements.
Monder is so sick... His work on "The Vastness of Space" (Reid Anderson) and "A Girl Named Joe" (Chris Cheek) is just unbelievable.
Martino picking is seductive and he is a good player. I just don't understand why he doesn't use motives to tell a story, to build tension and reach a climax.. I think it was Hal Galper that said the whole question / answer thing started with slaves singing in fields and that was a very important part of blues and jazz in the beginning. Can you image a sax player playing unstoppable stacatto always hard on dynamics lines? I actually hate when guitar players say that cliche (and they do say it a lot) "oh I wasn't influenced by guitar players, I just try to sound like a sax when I solo and like a piano when I comp" but I think Martinos playing is too guitaristic. And his sound was so much clear in the beginning, now is very dark and muddy. I wish he always played like this
People used to day that coltrane didnt say anything in his solos...and that it was more irritating then impressive. Be cautious of writing a player off....Oberg has got skillz you gotta admit , even Martin Taylor looks impressed
I get your point, I am not just throwing an opinion away. I have heard many things from him and although he can play very fast and has a lot of vocabulary he doesn't impress me at all. I don't hear a story on his solos. Coltrane plays a lot of notes but the lines are much more elaborate and related to each other, he is not just blowing changes or licks. Even Martin Taylor doesn't impress me playing single lines - although his solo guitar work is the best ever on that subject IMO. Even better than Joe Pass.
At this point its just subjective opinion for both us. I actually prefer the style scofield and wayne krantz for solos. I just admire the speed and veracity of Oberg, martino and so on.
I agree, its just my opinion not an absolute truth :) I also admire their speed but usually thats just it, although Martino can make excellent solos (as on "Just Friends") when he stops playing so many notes and for me is in a whole other league than Oberg.
I agree, Julian is very creative. I actually think you hit the point: I wish guys like Oberg and Martino searched for more creativity and specially for more diversity. Thats something I listen in Julian.
So is this a challenge to not listen to anyone and just play really fast?
Ha ha that reminded me another thing I miss when I hear Oberg playing - besides not hearing a story I usually don't hear any interaction between him and the rhythmic section. I also feel this in some gypsy jazz groups or the oscar peterson trio where usually the compers are just providing a steady beat for someone soloing. Miles talked a lot about this, you must stop playing and leave space for group interaction - his records "Four & More" and "My Funny Valentine" are excellent for that. George Coleman and Herbie Hancock play a lot of notes but always leave space for Tony Williams and Ron Carter interact with them.
If your definition of interact is stopping and letting others play, he and most players do that. They ARE interacting its just that the gypsy style requires the steady backbeat traditionally. If you want more malleable jazz, you're right Gyspy jazz wont transform on the spot like more modern jazz can.
Other good example
Although I really like lots of plays that play a lot of notes - Coltrane, Parker, Keith Jarrett, Metheny, Scofield, Kurt.. all these new generation guitar players like Lage, Gilad, Moreno, Kreisberg. etc... Even in my solos I like playing a lot of notes - but you can do that and use motifs and rests...
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