Great find on YouTube...Darn That Dream

(16 posts)

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  1. washabaugh
    Member

  2. jbroad
    Member

    i've never understood why a person would post a video of themselves playing someone else's solo

  3. fakejake
    Member

    Nice! The world needs more female guitar players!

  4. Gesture
    Member

    As we're posting darn that dream video's...

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  5. TruthHertz
    Member

    In literature it's called plagiarism, or at least a point of shame that you don't come up with your own ideas. Is this indicative of the new aesthetic in jazz, that the execution of someone else's thought process constitutes the reason for doing it? The metric of accomplishment?
    I don't think I'm being harsh by saying that this performer is missing the point. I do think it points to the way we teach: that sounding good is more important than thinking well. It's the only way I can see to condone posting an obviously capable player's assuming of another's identity.
    If an interesting thinker, say Richard Feinman, had a really insightful interview, and someone was impressed enough by his recognized stature to learn, mimic and perform that talk word for word- If that someone recorded it and posted it on youtube, just what would be the purpose?
    In art school, a student learns by making copies of works of the canon, imitating the masters. You don't show them though, they're bricks. Chops exercises.
    Yeah, we learn the idiom, but the learning process is not performance.
    David

  6. jbroad
    Member

    i totally agree david. just think how silly it would be if people would post themselves on youtube doing someone else's comedy routine or reciting someone else's speech. it's just ridiculous.

  7. fakejake
    Member

    Wow, I could't disagree more with you guys. Whats your problem? Why so emotional on this matter??
    There are plenty of reasons for posting a video of you playing someone else's solo.
    First, it's a great goal to have in mind. Like, 'This week I'm going to learn xy's solo, practice it and record the final result. Second, like it or not, we are social beings and like to get feedback, in particular appreciation, from others. Getting nice comments and a thumbs up on YT is a form of appreciation that certainly helps a lot of people to motivate themselves to learn a piece (and before you start bashing: of course it should not be the only or mayor motivation. But it can help).
    To me can also be a nice reference for later. In 5 years I might have forgotten that solo (quite likely) or I might not have the chops to pull it off anymore, because work/ kids/ wife take up most of the time and I don't get to practice as much anymore (hopefully not, but still quite likely...) I'll be nice to have a few recordings of myself. Some improvs, but why not 1-2 solos I transcribed.

    Honestly, you guys are taking this WAY to seriously. In fact, a lot of people on this forum in a lot of threads. Music and it NOT always about being innovative and fresh and pushing the boundaries. It should be fun, help to take your mind off things, see the beauty in life connect with your self. For some people this is done just by playing other peoples music. Doing that IS their performance, so they might as well tape it. In fact, your posts indicate that you don't enjoy watching someone perform a classical, written out piece of music. Because its not the performers OWN THING (LOL). If so, too bad, you're missing a lot of great stuff out there.
    Finally, dont worry, there's plenty of space on the internet for everybody to posts videos on anything, so that girls video isn't taking up elses space you might consider as more relevant. And nobody is forcing you to watch it, so all should be good. Peace.

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  8. TruthHertz
    Member

    Hey fakejake
    Thanks for the perspective, it's a valuable one. I do see your point. The internet does serve different people in different ways. You make a valid argument.
    It may have been the title of the thread "Great find" that put me in an anticipatory frame of mind.
    I guess I grew up in a time when it was assumed that everyone could become a player in the field called jazz. I guess I grew up in a time when somebody this good could generate more affirmation and more importantly, make progress in her own musical appreciation of the "improvisational" nature of the genre than what can be done in the obviously great effort it takes to learn and perform somebody else's solo.
    I guess in my day, if you could appreciate some other player's music; that was the first step in learning that this is the result of a process, one that you can take as your own.
    I suppose I assumed that, given her facility and talent in playing-that's evident-it would be an exciting endeavour to write out her own version, a tribute to Lage Lund, and do as he does, and take elements and assemble them in her own way.
    When I learned this thing called jazz, there was a distinction made from my teachers: creative and re-creative. It was a matter of paradigm. In this genre, you strove to be creative and the compositional element was a given. Maybe I come from a time when if you could make an omlette with fresh eggs, it was not really much more effort than getting it from a frozen box.
    My issue isn't with her, but rather the ostensible channeling of energy away from something I'd really like to see, and that is: What can she really do? That is what I love in the music, to find someone new and eagerly anticipate what she has to say. It's my opinion that too many students assume that learning to learn improvisational music, "jazz" is something they have no time for or is beyond them. Yet they will spend even more time in distraction, avoiding learning about the "music" and focus on the finger movement-ironically with an even costlier use of their time.
    But yeah, it is the internet. If many people find the re-creation of somebody else's voice a valid form of jazz, then let it be the new jazz. It's much larger than anybody can change, and she's certainly not alone.
    I will just conclude and say I don't know of any performer I've spoken to, who has gone the route to play their own music, who feels their cause or their music is furthered by sheer imitation. Each one of them has derived infinitely more satisfaction from finding their own voice. It's just part of the fun. Each began with the same tools and void before them. I see now that for some players now, it's not important to create improvisation, honestly it never occured to me. If the internet can foster a different avenue in the pursuit of fun, I will try to see it that way.
    Thanks for the insight.
    David

  9. fakejake
    Member

    David, let me first say that my command of the english language is not good enough to tell whether there is irony in your reply or not. But I seem to feel at least a little bit of it.
    Anyway, let me rephrase my point. I love to see and hear art in all forms by individuals who express their individuality in it, who push boundaries, express themselves and try to foster something new. Thats my main interest in art. The youtube video posted above clearly isn't that, and it would bore the hell out of me watching stuff like that all the time.
    Do I feel it still has relevance ancd its place? Absolutely! Not everyone is a professional musician with high goals like maybe you or other peaple on this forum are. Keep in mind that, out of the few people who really succeed in finding their true, own, distinct voice, even less do so at a very young age. This is a process that takes TIME, and most amateur players (like myself) don't have a lot of time. Up to that point, there is a lot of joy to get out of other peoples music.

    Another point of videos like that is it might help other people to learn difficult passages of a given solo. Personally, I have a really hard time picking out chords and particular voicings from a record. If I were to lern Lage's take on Darn, her video would be a great help.
    Now you'll probably go: 'Dude, you have to learn that stuff by yourself, it'll teach you much more, thats what jazz is all about....' Well gues what, I don't have the time, maybe not the talent, still it might make me happy to learn it, even if I need some help.

    I just don't see your issue with something that does no harm at all. Like I said, there is plenty of room in cyberspace, so let whoever wants to post a video od a transcription do that. I'm sure there is more than enough original material to find as well.
    Gee, be glad that people play instruments at all!!! Have you ever checked how many YT videos there are on guns and people shooting them??? I'd take a solo transcription over that any time.

  10. TruthHertz
    Member

    There was nothing ironic, facetious or insincere about a single word I wrote; I respect your view much too much to curtail any discussion with anything but earnest response, fakejake. I think I've said all that I want to say, and I hope if there comes a time when you don't feel you are short of the time needed to embrace an improvisational approach, you may find that a little effort and time devoted to that end will repay you generously.
    Until then, I hope you do really love all there is you find in the music.
    I mean this truly.
    David

    This is pretty, but I never really understood it. I wonder fakejake, would this qualify as a great find on youtube?

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  11. fakejake
    Member

    I think I get your point as much as you get mine. I can see what you mean by posting that video.
    If I would currently be practicing that piece on piano, I would regard it as a nice (not great) find. I'd watch parts of it to see how she tackles passages that I may would find difficult. But I wouldn't turn this video on if I wanted to listen to the Köln concert. In that case, I'd lisetn to Keith Jarret, naturally. Just as I'd rather listen to Lage Lund play his version of Darn, than anybody else. That was never my point.

    But there are some solo transcription on youtube I really enjoy. This guy for example really delivers a nice performance

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    Apart from that specific discussion, I wonder what kind of music would according to you qualifiy for a note per note interpretation by other people than the composer. You don't think Lage's solo does. You don't think Keith's piece does. Where do you draw the line? What about western classical music? Do you also think it is pretty, but you don't understand it?

  12. TruthHertz
    Member

    fakejake, I think of music as more than a push of a button on an ipod, so for me it's a communication with the creator with a respect for the context of that performance. If a composer created a work with the time and intention of needing a partner to relize it (written score) than I do respect that. Yes my appreciation of Western Classical music does range from early plain song through Lygeti, Partch, Ellington, David Binney. I respect the medium, the spirit and the music. The works and performances I enjoy are ones where the execution shows an understanding and insight into the composition, the intention. I don't enjoy gratuitous sweetness in any performance.
    Improvisational music has the syntactic element of compositional creation. A raga, whether performed by Ravi Shankar or a young student on his/her first legs of that journey needs to understand that. An evening raga performed last week in concert with a particular end of the day is not meant to be transcribed and played note for note by someone else on youtube. Sure you can, but it's not true to the intention. The "note only" treats music as a collection of sounds or hand movements and carefully extracts the semantic element. It has a different meaning from the true music as it was created.
    A lute suite by Weiss? Sure, I play them and love them. It is a musical partnership between the composer, his medium (written score) and me. The Koln concert? That was Keith Jarrett creating an hour of his thought process, offered as a personal communication. I think it was not just a collection of notes with the intention of being "concertized" by a fan at a future point in time.
    There is a spirit of spontaneity in jazz, the decision process at the moment, the vision of flow and architecture, the perception of harmonic density, the way you are hearing at THAT VERY MOMENT all goes into the collection of notes. It's a part of it. And though the notes are one part, they have a different purpose than reading a classical score. Jazz is lexicon and syntax in the service of the moment, classical is a meticulous construction chronicling the past up to that point with the intention of reaching the future. I see them as compatible but fundamentally different in their intentions. For me they require a different standard of respect.
    Thank you for that Beatles clip, I did like it.
    David
    Here's one that inspires me:

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  13. fakejake
    Member

    Well argued, David. I have to agree with what you said in your last post.
    I don't really want to go further into this discussion. I felt a like making a stand for the girls performace and for me liking it, especially as your and jbroads replies conveyed a sense of ignorance, even arrogance to me that I didn't like. That I did, and I think I also got your point, so I guess I'll move on.
    Great clip by Ribot btw. Isn't the Beatles catalog just a neverending source of beauty and inspiration?

  14. TruthHertz
    Member

    Beatles? "Oh yeah". I have a weekly span of time I play with other musicians. The Beatles are always at hand as readily as Bach is. Those are great templates for improvisation.
    Good discussion
    David

  15. arewolfe
    Member

    Transcribing and playing others stuff: Great for personal development. But yes, there are people who, it seems, learn things strictly in order to post them on YouTube. That's fine, but I do find it a bit odd when the genre is jazz, because it's supposed to be creative and original and an artistic representation of the self.

  16. skepasts
    Member

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    My favorite darn that dream video


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