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Have ya'll read this?(50 posts)
i dont think of music the way the mentioned players do, but then again, if i could play like kurt, i might think differently.
thats just kurts opinion.
and if we are talking opinion, i think the OJM record sucks, all that brass made a great song like "zhivago" sound like a bad a 70's detective show theme song. IMO
I'm glad that Kurt feels passionate about the quality of jazz, and maybe he made that statement out of frustration or out of a desire to start a conversation. But I wish Kurt had been specific, it would have added some meaning to his comment. It's like me saying, "bread sucks". I love bread, and I'm really into quality bread, so yeah most chain store bread sucks, but how would most people know what I"m talking about. So maybe that would start people thinking about the quality of their bread....but c'mon Kurt, tell me what jazz??
If I am allowed to voice an opinion in this forum, then it is that I love opinion. Opinion is what makes the world go around. I hate when people don't have an opinion or if they are so wise as to hide it so as to offend no one with their opinion. Declare yourself! I love that people on this forum feel free to voice their opinion, as well that Kurt just spoke his mind. It fosters debate and, to me, that's good.
I tell you my opinion: I am in a way surprised and in a way not surprised about your opinions about the OJM album. Surprised because I think it's beautiful. Not all of the time, and not every element is equally successful, to me, but as a whole I love the way that these arrangements shed a different light on Kurt's music. I think "Dream of the Old" is rather sublime, so tender and beautiful but also big and with the orchestral scale that the song also has. I hear this album as Kurt being the lead singer with a orchestra backing him, very different conceptually than every other release of his maybe except Heartcore.
Not surprised because I know that even inside the jazz camp, there's comparatively few fans of big band music, and inside of Kurt's camp, which is probably a younger, more progressive one than most, I'd guess that there's even relatively fewer. I am encouraged to see how big band music is moving forward now with people such as Maria Schneider, Darcy James, John Hollenbeck and others doing great things in that genre - to me big band will always be relevant in a jazz context.
The album stands out, to me, as something totally different from what Kurt has released before. I know some people feel he should just continue recording with Mark, Ben & Jeff, but the fun part, I think, is to try to surprise people with something hopefully fresh whenever a new album is being released.
That's just my opinion.
Thank you for your positive comments about "opinion" and sharing-I totally agree!
It's not that I don't appreciate the hard work and creativity that goes into making an album like OJM (and I think Kurt's playing, especially his phrasing, single not rhythm and musicality was on a real high). However, you're right, I just can't stand orchestra and most big band albums in a jazz context. I am a huge fan of Arvo Part and classical music, but not matter how hard I try to like big band jazz and orchestra (third stream or whatever it is), I can't stand it.
It always sounds corny to me and honestly it really demonstrates the level of genius in the classical world, just like the level of genius in a Coltrane solo that classical cats can't touch....
Just my opinion, but I have not heard an orchestral or jazz big band that I"ve like since Duke and Basie, sorry.
I read the article. I fully agree with KR and the other dude. It's funny because I consider myself a fairly serious musician and jazz is my main passion in life. But I really don't like listening to jazz. The only jazz artists whose recordings "take me to another universe" are Kurt and Bill Evans. You could throw Aaron Parks in there, too. I mean there are plenty of other artists that blow me away, but none of them have given me the education or inspiration I've drawn from KR and BE.
I've been into jazz for 8 years... I will probably never reach the level of those who inspire me. That doesn't bother me. And that article doesn't upset me at all. It's just reality. Jazz is an absurdly difficult art, inevitably most of it is not going to be good.
I think the OJM record sucks too. I'd rather hear a KR quartet bootleg any day. The last big band stuff that came out that grabs a hold of me is Sinatra's stuff from the 50's and 60's.
If u dont like listening to Jazz then dont. If that is the case, then how would u expect other people to listen to your music ? How would u even find Jazz that u like . There is no chanse in hell that u could have listned to everything out there and found that it all sucks.
To me it seems that kurt is saying that alot of jazz now adays is about other things than the music. Cool shoes , i nice suits and a romantic atempt to be around the jazz universe not primarely to make music but to be Jazz. Thats not the same thing as bashing all music and musicians. Couse if it was, then there is no point in Kurt or anybody else to play with others. Then there will be no more jazz.
By the way, Metheny is just making me angry with his bullshit /J
The main feeling i have when reading the article and discussion on KR s facebook page is that the other guy and kurt are not talking about the same thing.
I can be mistaken of course, because what kurt said was very general, but based on what i understood on kurt's explanations of this later, the other guy kind of 'jumped' on the discussion to push forward his thoughts about jazz, and that these were not meant by kurt.
From what i heard, kurt was talking about people not paying attention to the music: having a gig, not researching enough, as if learning to play was good enough so you don't have to invest time in a project as rock players would. So to me it sounds like a critic of how some people just come show up in gigs or studio and have not worked enough on the core of the project. (and maybe on their improvisers abilities, but i feel that this is not the subject as of course .. there are many people who learn and who maybe do not find the keys to get on the masters level, that does not mean they don't have the right to practice and play). If Kurt said: come on guys, let's show the world jazz can be great and be sure what we play and record does not sound as a bunch of friends in a jam session, I totally agree with that, (of course, that's what i inferred out of kurt's rather open message, it's my interpretation).
As i see it, other guy came in the discussion and started talking about how youngsters do not swing and do not pay their dues and how playing chords on a beat is not jazz, but bad music etc etc. To me, this guy made no sense and i do not follow his opinion at all. His definition of music is what it is and i find it reductive and close minded. I think he is SO much focused on his critical opinions and negative thoughts on what is good music and not good music that he projected it on kurt comment and acted as if that's what kurt said. and after that, everyone assumed it was true. probably thinking that was what kurt really said.
Anyway. just wanted to share this thought, i think most of the buzz around kurt's sentence comes from the rather close minded opinions of the OTHER guy, not kurt's.
p.s. i'm not a fan of the OJM recording too .. some nice moments (dream of the old!). but i don't really dig the arrangements and sound. it sounds stiff , not really organic.
I totally agree with arewolfe : i mostly listen to kurt's bootlegs! the ones on this forum mainly, at the village vanguard (kurts solos on another time and i need to know are .... incredible. best illustration of what makes kurt a great musician in my opinion.. it seems to come from what makes us alive and human) ... and paris (jackie's place in particular, great version)
i don't care about the lame sound. to me it's the best i've heard from kurt.
p.p.s by the way and while we're sharing thoughts like that. I also read kurt's note about that incident. and i find it sad that the conclusion is basically 'i should pay more attention to what i say in public'. I mean, .. yes Kurt should pay attention to what he says, but he shouldn't STOP saying things like that. Lots of people would be interested in insight and thoughts from someone as deeply involved into music( That's why i started coming on this website, and i confess i am little disappointed. this forum is great, but theres no input from kurt other than commercial ads and happy new year once a year and the ads for gigs and new projects. I'm aware that kurt might be very busy, and has other things to do that spend his days on the net talking to aspiring musicians, but this is almost exclusively reduced to commercial communication at the moment. That's not a critic, that's.. how it is, and if that's what kurt wants, it's ok. ). Anyway, i would like more thoughts by kurt, but maybe he should be very careful of how he says it and be sure the message is clear and formulated in a clean, unambiguous way. Just saying this because the note said 'i should pay attention to how i say things' but felt like 'in the future i'll keep my thoughts to myself' to me. Which would be a loss for all of us i think.
Your comment is some passive aggressive behavior if I ever saw some...
Your an international star that has a million chances to actually help the state of music and you choose to Facebook that "the music sucks".
Sorry...love your music...but can't respect that choice at all.
How many workshops have we all listened to where you answered mindless questions about picks, strings, amp settings.... If you really feels that the music sucks, why not seize these opportunities? "Hey man...don't worry about my amp settings....your music sucks. That's what you need to worry about. Oh, and by the way, let's spend the next hour or two trying to make it better". Instead we get you biting your tongue and playing along, and then mesmerizing us with some crazy bad-ass technique that is more than likely out of reach for most. Do you think that the music sucks because our technique isn't as good as yours? Doubtful(although it isn't)....maybe you should
offer more guidance about what it is that you see as the problem and then do everything you can to help the situation.
Hey Joxo, what was the Metheny reference about? Explain, I"m curious? thanks
It seems that everybody's afraid of saying something in public except Metheny on Kenny G and Keith Jarrett when he wrote an op ed piece for the New York Times on the current state of music.
Hey Jazznan - I am also a huge Arvo Pärt fan! To reach that level of subtlety and expression...wow! That's the ultimate I'd agree! But did u ever listen to Darcy James "Infernal Machines" for instance? I love that too..he's definitely moving the big band game forward in my opinion. And Maria Schneider is just so wonderfully lyrical, great song-writing too! It's hard for me to imagine that a jazz fan can listen to that music without being moved at all!
As for the comments Kurt made on the state of jazz. Well, perhaps it could have been voiced a little more artfully, I think he agrees with that, which is why he wrote the 2nd note. I haven't discussed this with him at all, so this is my own personal interpretation, but I don't think this has anything whatsoever to do with chops other than the focusing too much on displaying them! There's some sad music out there by some great players! A lot of the critics LOVE IT, cause it must be GENIUS when you can't ever find the one or if it seems to be best designed to reveal the emotional lives of the aliens from "Mars Attacks". If only it was that funny! But usually it's so serious. I am sure much of it is heartfelt, honest music. But I sure can't listen to that either.
No I haven't listened to Darcy James, you've found me out :) Okay, I'll give it a whirl....but if I don't like it don't get mad at me ;)
Thanks for the suggestion.....just out of curiosity, and everyone be honest here, What albums have you listened to repeatedly and not in a month, but you keep listening to them over several years?
Btw - if anybody needs reminder of what good jazz is then this is your spot: http://www.npr.org/2011/09/11/140229346/first-listen-miles-davis-live-in-europe-1967-the-bootleg-series-vol-1&sc=nl&cc=jn-20110918
my post was not an invitation for everyone to say what they think sucks or not. my whole and only point was to say- c'mon people, we are not living up to the standards of music that are demonstrated in the music we are playing, in general. yeah i said it in a kind of negative or forceful or biting way, but the onus is on you to get the message right. and anyone who is really taking care of their own music will not be affected by my words because if you read what i say you'll understand that the only thing i ask is for people to make sure that THEIR OWN MUSIC doesnt suck, not an invitation to complain about everyone else. im sick of this bullshit and im sorry i posted anything in the first place. anyway i consider that my one "gratis" rant. i think everyone should be allowed at least one rant gratis without all this shit storm around it. I have spent countless countless hours talking about music in the most positive ways- always- at clinics and with my students and with everyone all the damn time. then i say one thing that is critical and everyone has a shit fit. whatever people are just too hypersensitive and want to jump on everything anyone says for pro or con. cant believe there are actually newspaper articles about this dumb shit. what i said should not have been controversial at all anyway. and btw i did later clarify EXACTLY what i was referring to, so it wasnt just an unfair general attack on jazz music.
Our Secret World album with OJM is a great one!!!!!!. No way to say something different about this. Everyone that thinks different is simply wrong. I don't accept discussion about this. I love it and i really think it's something MARVELLOUS. It reminds me something about the Gil Evans and Miles Davis work and i am agree with wonmusic that in this album Kurt play the "singer part" with an orchestral background.
IT'S GREAT. Period.
I think no one is legitimate to be critic about other music in a specific way (at least if you don't need to pay your rent making absurd consideration on other's one music and then be a professional critic). I think it's ok to say that some of the actual jazz music sucks (just a personal opinion), i don't think is good to say that a specific artist or musician or album sucks. About this kind of consideration i always follow the wise advice who says: "if you can't say something good about someone, then say nothing".
Third (especially for Kurt with all my love, respect and friendship):
"If you throw a stone inside a lake you can't expect something different than waves". I hope everyone gets the analogy.
All the best
Our Secret World is a great album with some truly beautiful moments.
Jazz is killin' and most of the musicians I know are killin'.
Life is good.
To me strong personal opinion is something that makes an artist stand out in a crowd. Тrue art is always controversial, only mediocrity isn't.
I think a true artist should never compromise his artistic views just because somebody would get offended.
"Kurt Rosenwinkel is more popular than Jesus"
First of all, it is definitely helpful to express the positives in music, BUT, you need to be critical to progress. If you have been/or are critical of your own and others music then you probably will/ or soon will experience and understand what Kurt is talking about. Of course people will blow up all over these words, but these kinds of things can become quotes that 50 years from now people will look at and go "wow that was a revolutionary thought for the times." ,,,, it could also go unnoticed... Do any of you think that we should pay more attention to our musical values? What is the most important part in music right now?
I often notice that people think "jazz musicians are improvisers, thats what we do! Don't tell me how to play my instrument! I've been studying for 8 hours a day for 5 years or 10 years or 20 years! let me do what I do!" I really dislike this perspective. To me this is so limiting, especially when learning to play the music of a composer(who hears all of the instruments playing together in a specific way to create one amazing experience). The notes/dynamic markings on the page are only a small part of information on how to play the music correctly so IMO get off your lazy ass and start working with the composer to get the music right! Don't just slap on a Latin feel or straight 8ths or some shit like that. much like in a rock project. you get that part/feel down perfectly or don't play at all. Music sucks when it is not cared for and nurtured in this way.
Lots of jazz is now recycled. "oh yah I know how to play jazz! you feel it like so and so on those blue note records. Now I know how to play music! I've got it all figured out!" No you do not. a 5 year old child could come up with an idea that could make a brilliant album. There are infinite ways to play an infinite amount of things. I think part of what is meant by Kurt and others is that this care is not put in. I can definately hear the care kurt puts into his music and it's amazing.
I really love OJM by the way. what I've learned recently is that you can enjoy any piece of music, you just need to develop a positive connection with it. so if you decide oh that sounds like a 70's detective theme song show(and you don't like 70s detective theme songs) then you've just ruined it for yourself by categorizing it that way. It doesn't have to be that. and neither does Britney Spears or any other music. This is a fact. We all naturally decide what is good or not by adding non musical information to the music. like this artist cares this much and has someone else write the music. or they lipsync so i don't like it. Really at the end of the day remember that you are the one that decides what music is good and bad mostly by those bits of information. Personally every time I've had a good experience with music, words cannot describe my joy or experience I'm having.
Also Jason Marsalis' point about people playing bad jazz and then scaring people away from "real jazz music". i think this is more an issue with the name "jazz music" that probably cannot be solved. He just doesn't like how jazz music seems dead to lots of people because all there exposed to is "crap jazz"
Regards to everyone on the forum and I hope you have something to say about this stuff.
riverstooge "Kurt Rosenwinkel is more popular than Jesus" amen to that brother! :)
The OJM album is great! and you know what? "Zhivago" sound like a GOOD 70's detective show theme song to me and i love it! :)
Hey Kurt after that comment, I feel like we're all football players and I just wanna slap yer ass and say, "c'mon!" Hahaha, love the passion in this discussion, about time, if you ask me, that's what jazz needs, passion and intensity...not people going through the motions and making sure everything is in it's right place, "c'mon!"
Also, to Kurt a big thank you and much respect for not shutting this discussion down, yeah, have your one rant, but why shouldn't you voice your opinion...you're more invested in this discussion than most, and I think taking to the internet is a powerful tool, that you should use to express, clarify inform and shape the discussion of jazz and music-instead of waiting for someone to interview and ask silly generic questions all the time, be proactive!
(As to the 'riverstooge" comment, this is where things start to break down and just start to get dumb)
"If u dont like listening to Jazz then dont. If that is the case, then how would u expect other people to listen to your music ?"
@Joxo: I don't care if anyone else listens to my music. Playing music is a release, that's all.
Just a few things to say. On the good music vs bad music discussion: I have always felt that not all music is equal and I have never really agreed that everything is on the same level as everything else. Because music is such a personal thing for everyone it can be very hard to discuss good and bad without someone going nuts because they think it's great. For me the best analogy is by using books. If you compare the works of lets say James Joyce or J.R.R Tolkien to maybe Dan Brown or someone who writes romance novels, yes they are using the same words and building blocks to make a story but Joyce and Tolkien are far better. So for me I don't view Britney Spears as an equal to Kurt or Coltrane or any of the jazz greats over the last 50 years because simply put their music is better.
As for the OJM record, it's not something that I have on heavy rotation but I think Zhivago is actually the best arrangement on the whole album. Whoever did that arrangement really tried to explore some avenues that the other ones failed to do. I was disappointed by Turns because I felt that was going to be a tune that can be really worked with and explored and taken to another place. And this is just a personal thing but I felt that the drummer isn't that great. But that's just me, I'm very picky when it comes to the drums.
as an aside, i wonder how it feels to be Kurt reading these opinions...
lots of stuff going on here. I've always thought if music makes you feel good, then it's good for you. one person's poison might be another's medicine.
first of all, nobody have the must to be agree with nobody. there is not only a truth at all, that is what is true. i subscribe denjz's words and the analogy of the lake's waves by animitta is amazing, yes kurt, now you realize you are famous, you already knew that. do you remember the stupid monica lewinsky scandal. yeah, it depends on who you are. if i sleep with her nobody cares, but when Clinton did...yes. sad but true. i'm sorry for kurt, but everybody learn from this happenings, we must do. best for kurt and the forum member guys.
What about Monica? Nobody cares about her. Why does everyone treat the woman like a whore, and not the guys? In this scenario is Kurt "Bill Clinton" and Monica "jazz"? Maybe that's why nobody cares, cause everyone's treating jazz like a whore. You should care about women and treat jazz with the respect she deserves.
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