Email

Kurt's Use of Triads

(16 posts)

Tags:

  1. I've been listening to Kurt's playing a lot and been looking at some transcriptions and I see he uses simple triads a lot. Thing is, when he plays them they sound so different and hip. Can anyone shed some light on what approach Kurt uses when he plays triads?

  2. If you get into hybrid chords (slash chords, polychords, whatever...) and the nature of why THEY sound hip, you`re hearing. A lot of it is also upper structure triad stuff. Look it up, homie.

  3. Matt
    Member

    Bitonality?

  4. jazznan
    Member

    here's a simple one, take a root note, i.e. C, and put major triads above it, i.e. C/D (gives u CMaj6/9#11, or C/E give you Maj#5 or Dominant) etc...hope that helps a bit

    Contact us
  5. Sandemose
    Member

    Yeah, I would start out systematically with major/minor triads and just shift bass note cromatically beneath it. Like a D major triad on the G,B,E strings with F# on top. Then start with the D,C#,C (major7, dom7 sounds), B = minor7, Bb = major#5, A = sus13, Ab = b9,b5,7 sound, G = lydian, F# = D/F#, F = 13b9 sound, E = (implied minor (?), minor11, Eb = perhaps the Kurt/Mark hip "major7#11#9 sound"?. The Eb will ofcourse sound very diminished (as the 13b9 sound above, now with a dom7 note if you see it as a F13 chord).

    Do the same thing with the D minor triad as well. Organize the material so that you get an arsenal of posibilities for minor7 (IIm7), for dominant 7 (V7), and major chords (Imajor7). The most obvious solution would be:

    Eb major triad (Cm7) IIm7
    D major triad (F13b9) V7
    D minor triad (Bbmajor7) Imajor7

    Thats at least something to start with. The major/minor triads are so strong that I find them hard to master. I takes alot of conviction to make the to familiar D major triad to sound like F13b9, but you will sound very harmonically indipendent when you nail it. Major/minor triads are also quite hard (at least for me) to execute well on guitar. I think Lage Lund and Jonathan "JESUS" Kreisberg really do that well.

    Good luck, and thanks for bringing it up, the major/minor triads are so important but often forgotten in the theoretical discussion. I always practice standards playing only triads staying in the same position on the same strings. I find harder to learn the tune by heart, and realize whats going on benath all the voicing hysteria and get into the core of harmony.

    Best, Sandemose

    Secret
  6. filters
    Member

    Great topic; Cool post Sandemose.

    But I didn't understand this part : "I would start out systematically with major/minor triads and just shift bass note cromatically beneath it. Like a D major triad on the G,B,E strings with F# on top. Then start with the D,C#,C (major7, dom7 sounds), B = minor7, Bb = major#5, A = sus13, Ab = b9,b5,7 sound, G = lydian, F# = D/F#, F = 13b9 sound, E = (implied minor (?), minor11, Eb = perhaps the Kurt/Mark hip "major7#11#9 sound"?. The Eb will ofcourse sound very diminished (as the 13b9 sound above, now with a dom7 note if you see it as a F13 chord)."
    Could you explain it again please ? :)

  7. Sandemose
    Member

    Yeah sure, sometimes I cant get my thought across as I want it. I´ll TAB it instead:

    --2------------
    --3------------
    --2------------
    --------------- D major
    --5------------
    ---------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- Dmaj/C#
    --4--------------
    ----------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- D/C
    --3-------------
    ----------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- Bm7
    --2--------------
    ----------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- Bbmaj7#5
    --1--------------
    ----------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- Asus13 (?) or D/A
    --0------------
    -----or 5-----

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- Ab7b9#11
    ----------------
    --4--------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- G major7add9 (not really lydian as I wrote before)
    ----------------
    --3-------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- D/F#
    ----------------
    --2--------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- F13b9
    ----------------
    --1--------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    ---------------- Esus (works nice as a Em11 as well).
    ----------------
    --0-------------

    --2--------------
    --3--------------
    --2--------------
    --1-------------- D/Eb (diminished sound, symetrical sounding?)
    ----------------
    ----------------

    Thats what I meant. Take one triad, and move the bass note cromatically one octave. What sounds can you use in a chord progression situation? Hope it helps,

    Best, Sandemose

  8. Matt
    Member

    Great ideas, sandemose. This opens up somne harmonic doors for me:)

    i have experimented with the symmetrical diminished scale (Half-Whole), which can be used to play dom.7 triads minor 3rds above minor7/dom.7 chords ie over a C7 or Cmin7, you can play Eb7, Gb7, A7 triads. unfortunately, they sound rather awful. or at least the contexts i've tried.

  9. Sandemose
    Member

    Yeah, I hear you. I agree about the triad minor thirds appart tend to sound "wrong" outside, at least when I mess with them.
    But try this one then:

    --2--------
    --3-------
    --2--------
    --1-------
    -----------
    ----------

    You can see it as F7, Ab7, B7, and a D7. So, what are the relative IIm7 chords to each of these ones? Well, Cminor, Ebminor, F#minor, and Aminor. Which voicinings, near this one can you find for each of these IIm7 chords?

    -1----2----1----
    -3----3----1--
    -3----2----0---- Cminor > F13b9 > Bbmajor7
    -1----1----0-----
    --------------
    -------------

    --1----2---1---
    --2----3---1----
    --3----2---1----- Ebminor9 > Ab13#11 > Dbmajor7
    --4----1---------
    -------------4-----
    ------------------

    -4----2----2----
    -2----3----0----
    -2----2----1---- F#m9 > B7#9 > Emajor9
    -2----1----1-----
    -------------------
    -------------0--

    -3----2----2----
    -1----3----3---
    -4----2----2----
    -2----1--------- Aminor9 > D7b9 > Gmajor7
    ---------------
    ------------3---

    Then, move up the diminshed structre one minor third and do same thing again, voiceleading the closest way.

    Best, Sandemose

  10. filters
    Member

    Thanks a lot Sandemose. I didn't get you in the first one, that's clear now.

  11. This has turned out to be a great thread. Thanks for all the info, guys. I will try some of these chordal ideas later on and see what I can come up with myself.

    I also found a nice blog with a lesson on how Kurt uses triads in his lead playing - http://sharp11.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/kurt-rosenwinkel-triad-licks/

  12. silverwater
    Member

    One thing you can do (and easily conceptualize and apply) is to take the root of the dominant chord you're playing over, and build a diminished 7 chord from the root:

    For example, our chord is a G7. Building a diminished chord from the root would give us the notes G, Bb, Db, E.

    Now, you can build major triads from each of those notes, and wank away from there.By the way, all these notes come from an Ab W/H diminished scale, a scale that most would use over a G7 chord to begin with, so you know it's kosher.

    My favorite is to use the triad builds off the m3 and M6 (bb7), especially when playing over a dom7 b9 nat13 chord.

  13. Matt
    Member

    Sandemose - that voicing is very interesting. really applicable.

    Also, your comping ideas seem to be very unique ie non-root voicings, close harmonic movement (that's me attempting to talk 'musician talk'), and creating a lot of tension.

    i like it. :)

  14. Colonel Trane
    Member

    Just to add a little more to this topic I'll bring in some other triads I work with (and have heard in Kurts work) Taking just the 1 3 and 7 of a maj7 min7 or dom7 chord and just using that to imply harmony. When you start to work with inversions you get some really interesting voicings and that continues when you experiment with bass notes as shown by sandemose in his other post. Lately something else I've been working on has been just using the 3 7 and 9 of all these chords as well as all the versions of that, also some interesting voicings there though more ambigious sounding.

  15. Sandemose
    Member

    Cool stuff Colonel Trane, I will def. dig into this chord extension stuff alot more...I just need to get the basics down first...

    Best, Sandemose

  16. Thanks again for all the replies guys.

    I like your idea of using the 3, 7 and 9 of chords, Colonel Trane and this is something I will definitely be experimenting with.


Reply

You must log in to post.