1. bingefeller
    Member

    Hi folks,

    I'm wondering, and maybe some of the more knowledgable players can tell me, what is typical of modern jazz players? What makes Kurt Rosenwinkel, Tim Miller, Jonathan Kreisberg and Ben Monder sound so modern? I can't put my finger on it...

  2. Benny
    Member

    Buy and work your way through Tim Lippincott's 5 part lesson series 'Modern Jazz Guitar': http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=160&Itemid=32

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  3. bingefeller
    Member

    I'm not looking for lessons as I'm already a member on the Tim Miller site. I'm asking for the opinions of people here as to what _they_ think makes modern jazz players, such as those I've mentioned, sound so fresh.

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  4. jorgemg1984
    Member

    Triads and pentatonics with delay and reverb :)

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  5. docbop
    Member

    Modern recording techniques, players combining influences differently. As they say you want to learn about player, listen to who they listened to.

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  6. smoke
    Member

    Several things come to mind but I am sure the list is far from complete.

    More complicated harmonic structures and harmonies, less reliance on ii-V's and cycle progressions
    Odd time signatures
    More legato, horn-like phrasing
    More complicated rhythmic phrasing, odd note groupings, etc
    More chromaticism
    More superimposed triads, interval sets, pentatonics, etc
    More overdriven tone with lots of reverb and delay
    Wider field of influences from all types of music
    More tolerance for dissonance and tension

  7. jorgemg1984
    Member

    "More legato, horn-like phrasing" I just disagree with this one... Lund, Monder or Kreisberg use much more staccato. All the rest is well pointed out|

  8. smoke
    Member

    Didn't imply all players but it certainly is common.

    Another one is a more straight time feel.

  9. Poparad
    Member

    Warning: hypothesis and opinion to follow:

    The phrasing of their melodic lines is much different, and this is true not just of modern guitar players but simply modern jazz players in general. Older players came out of the bebop tradition that involves a lot of long, snaking 8th note lines with chromaticism and enclosures, and while that's still evident in modern player's vocabulary to some degree, there's a far greater emphasis on thematic development. A player will take a small melodic figure, perhaps an interval or a rhythm, and develop it with variations over the course of a few bars or more. This seems to be a driving force in many (though not all) modern approaches. In other words, from measure to measure, phrase to phrase, each improvised part has more continuity, just like a composed melody for a song does.

  10. jazzacast55
    Member

    I would have to say sound has a lot to do with it, for me 12 gauge strings with a wound 3rd in to some reverb and delay then maybe a solid state amp (not all the time though) creates a modern sound.
    There is a modern vocab that everyone seems to be pulling from stuff like lines with 5ths, chords with minor 2nds in there some where, pretty vauge answer but something around those lines.

  11. bingefeller
    Member

    Great thread guys, lots of good observations.

    Can someone please explain what interval sets are?

  12. silverwater
    Member

    I'm going to say growing up in a time after the influence of guys like Chuck Berry, Hendrix, Page, Beck, David Gilmour, and Eddie Van Halen reinvented how the instrument could and would sound has had as much of an impact as anything.

    Combined that with the influence guys like Bill Evans, Joe Henderson, Herbie, Wayne, Woody have had on everybody.

    Also, I'd add: Accents and lines starting and ending on less "typical sounding" places, a less swung 1/8th note, and odd groupings of notes (like playing 5 over 4, etc.).

    As an accompanying instrument it has advanced a lot as well (though will still forever be behind the piano )

  13. docbop
    Member

    Might be of interest to some Mike's Master Classes's Tom Lippincott has a series of classes on Modern Jazz Guitarists. There are video previews to get an idea what each class is about.

    http://www.mikesmasterclasses.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=160&Itemid=32

    I haven't checked out Tom's series of classes, but have quite a few of the Sheryl Bailey and Steve Herberman classes which are great.

  14. egav
    Member

    The lippincott series are more than just lessons. They would answer exactly what you want to know.
    As far as the style goes, its more complex. Back in the 60s they didnt have all the material we have today. Jazz wasnt widely recognized as an academic subject by most places and it was limited where you could study it, i believe, and even then it wasnt that thorough. There was a good set of theory behind it but not as thoroughly analyzed as we have it today. This makes the vocabulary completely different.
    Vocabulary was meant to be clear cut, to make the changes. If you're familiar with literature, think of it as Charles Dickens, having a clear sense of the language and making everything clear. Think of what these guys are doing as something more like James Joyce. The language is very vague, but the construction and assembly of it is a masterpiece.
    In more specific terminology, a lot of what these guys are doing is heavy harmonically. They use a lot of modal techniques in things that normally wouldn't. A good example of this is shown in Vic Juris' book modern voicings, where he gives tons of examples of intervallic chords constructed with modes. Ben Monder uses that technique a lot. Guys like Kurt and Gilad Hekselman use a sort of "linear" approach to playing, as i've heard people say. I wish I could explain a little better, but you can tell from how they play, its not something like bird or coltrane. Its sort of more vague, again, using a more modal approach. They seem to look for the least amount of notes to change when changing chords, but at the same time, rely on a lot of alterations to do this.

    Get the lippincott videos, anyhow, it'll really give you what youre looking for.


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