Secret

More than you know question

(11 posts)
  1. harmnobean
    Member

    Hi everybody,

    I've been transcribing some licks that caught from Kurt's recording of More Than You Know and am trying to come up with some harmonic justification for one note of one lick in particular.

    This is a quick ii-V-I lick (in F) starting at 3:50. A-G-C-A, B-A-F-D, A-G-E-C#, F#-E-C#-A#, resolving to A (the third of F)

    The last two groups of four notes are easy to analyze, since they are just A7 and F#7 arpeggios, which are related to C7 through the diminished scale and imply C13b9 and C7b9b5, respectively.

    My question is about the first half of the lick, and particularly the presence of the B natural on a C7 chord. My best guess is that Kurt is thinking of a G9 chord here (B-A-F-D), following by a Gsus (A-G-C-A). So, G-7 to C7 becomes Gsus to G9 to C7. This seems like a decent justification to me but I was wondering if anybody had any other thoughts on this.

    By the way, in case anybody was wondering more about this tune, Kurt's version appears to stick very closely to the chart in New Real Book 2 (including the verse). Additionally, I would recommend that anybody who likes Kurt's arrangement of You've Changed to check out the Ella Fitzgerald version on the Whisper Not cd, as he borrows quite a bit from it.

  2. harmnobean
    Member

    bump. any thoughts/ideas?

  3. Matt
    Member

    He could also be hinting at an Am7, which is diatonic to Gm7. In the second lick, he follows the same intervallic structure, except the A to F, which is a minor 6, not a P4.
    Really, there are a lot of options of chords that those four notes could be, or any four - Dm6, G9, Bm7b5 (half-diminished), Asusb5...

    I've heard Lester Young do the same thing over dominant 7ths, if that's any justification, too. It sounds good to me.

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  4. jazznan
    Member

    if you study Bach or Parker, you will quickly notice that the music is moving vertically, not horizontally. You can't "freeze frame" it and take a snap shot of it. You have to see where it's going and Parker used Major 7th "over" or rather through dominant chords all the time. Think chromatic approach notes, better yet, does it sound good? Where's the music heading?

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  5. harmnobean
    Member

    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    @matt, I do see how B D F A can imply a lot of different harmony (C#7b9#5 is another one), but still think G9 makes the most sense in this context because it would imply Circle of 5ths motion (G9 to C7). also, I'm aware of Lester Young using the major 7 on the I7 chord in blues situations, but haven't personally noticed him using it on the V7 chord in a ii-V-I context as Kurt is here. I admit I haven't studied him a lot though, so if you ever have time to cite a specific example I'd definitely be interested.

    @jazznan, I feel like this lick is pretty self-contained. As far as where it's going, he basically continues in F major before moving on to the rest of the solo. My understanding of Parker's (and other bop guys) use of the major 7 on dominants was generally in more of a chromatic passing tone situation (C-B-Bb), but if you have examples of him using it as a melody note in this context I'd like to see it, although I'd understand if you didn't feel like going through a bunch of Bird recordings looking for a specific example. As far as it sounding good, I think Kurt's line sounds fine, although I do think the B sticks out (which is why I wondered about it in the first place). He certainly plays it with a lot of conviction, which helps.

    Any other thoughts are welcome!

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  6. using a dominant chord as the ii is very common. cool lick

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  7. Poparad
    Member

    Yeah, it looks just like G7 to C13b9.

  8. heartin09
    Member

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  9. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    I agree with jazznan (except the music is moving horizontally, vertically would refer to the traditional jazz way).

    By some explanations of Kurt himself in interviews and clinics, he doesn't always play the backing harmony, and choses to play another structures on top of it, or to 'play based purely on the sound of the note against the chord itself, without taking functionality in mind.

  10. harmnobean
    Member

    Hmmm that's all well and good, but at this point I'm convinced that this particular example is just a II7-V7-I lick, treating the II chord diatonically and the V chord with the diminished scale. I don't feel that this is an example of the more free approach described by Jorge....Kurt has also said in interviews that bebop takes up a big chunk of his listening time, and I think his approach to standards in particular demonstrate that he has done his homework.

    Regardless of a players approach, I find it useful when transcribing something that catches my ear to try to understand what is going on. It also makes it easier to extrapolate the players concepts and use it to make your own licks. In this example, Kurt's use of the diminished scale implies several different exercises one could practice, that would lead to similar, but personal applications.

  11. "5 of 5" kinda thing i thnk. also called secondary dominance. seems totally cool to me. I was playing it just to make sure and you just have to make sure you are emphasizing the secondary dominance (or in this case emphasizing the G7 sound). Can't just be hanging out on the B natural over a C7 unless you have the G7 sound really prominent in that moment.

    Chris


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