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Octave dependant scales

(23 posts)
  1. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    Hello everybody!

    I'm new to this forum, but have been reading it for a while.

    I would like to ask if somebody have had the chance to ask Kurt's about this topic. I have read in an interview on internet that sometimes he works with scales that have different notes depending on the octave, and I really don't have a clue as how to put this to work...

    If anybody has any insight into this, will be much appreciated.

  2. filters
    Member

    amazing ! I had the same question in my head the whole week after re-reading this ! and I don't have any idea what it is about too.

  3. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    Hello again!

    For those who hasn't read the interview, here it is http://campstudio.blogspot.com/2008/05/real-rosenwinkel-now.html

    In particular, the quote from Kurt that blew my mind (and still does) is: "there are some moments in my songs that have a chord that one needs to use octave specific scales to play over. that "chord tones" only sound good in the bottom register and a completely different scale emerges at the top like a flower[...]"

    I really can't understand how this can be without taking it to the common field of chord+tensions, e.g. Dm7b11 for a scale with three consecutive chromatic tones.

    Maybe a good topic to talk in the harmony book? ;)

  4. filters
    Member

    I'm thinking about the tune "safe corners"... I don't know why. There's a moment in this tune where there's a unison between sax and guitar where the harmony seems quite weird, yet beautiful.
    But I don't know if it's related to this topic, but indeed, this seems quite interesting... especially when Kurt says "Mark Turner is super-advanced in this area"... wow.

  5. Sandemose
    Member

    Hi Jorge, and welcome to the forum. I wonder how many who actually come here to read posts but dont write anything themselfs..? Eitherway, cool Jorge of you to bring this topic up. I remember reading that interview and that it made me vary confused and curious. I get Slonimskys "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" vibes about this. I guess some of those scales take over two octaves to complete themselfs (sometimes three or even four?) and thats why the scale contain different pitches in different registers. Anyone else who is better on this subject? I guess Im kinda guessing here...haha...

    Best, Sandemose

    EDIT: Slonimsky:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

  6. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    I don't think it has to do with Slonimsky, because he was working through symetrical divisions of the octave, so the upper octave would be the same as the lower...but again, I have just read through the book, not worked deep with it.

  7. Matt
    Member

    My brain just pooped.

  8. LJM
    Member

    Hi, this is my first post, though I´ve been an avid reader of the forum for months. I read the interview where Kurt talks about that subject and, in my opinion, this is directly related to the bitonal concepts used by the Lennie Tristano school of improvisation. I strongly recommend listening to compositions and improvisations by guys like Lenny himself, Lee Konitz, Warne Marsh and Ted Brown, to name a few. If you are into the theoretical foundations behind the concept you should check out a book by John Klopotowski, who studied with Warne. He covers both Warne´s life as well as the materials the master used when teaching. If you need more information just let me know.
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/17489516/A-Jazz-Life-Scribd-Version

  9. LMJ, i think you nailed it. that is some great info in there, thanks! i definitely hear mark turner doing that

  10. LJM
    Member

    Thanks Smith! I also feel that a great deal of Mark Turner´s rhythmic and harmonic vocabulary comes from that school (especially from Warne).

  11. LJM, that tonic major scale is great(well all five!!). it reminds me of a lesson i had with steve cardenas where he said that sometimes he would just improvise through the circle of fiths over a tune to get outside lines that sounded in.

  12. Sandemose
    Member

    LJM: great post, thanks alot for sharing! Welcome to the forum as well, great to have you onboard!

    Best regards, Sandemose

  13. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    Thank you very much for the info LJM!

    Talking about that, I found on Jimmy Emerzian's site http://www.emerzianmusic.com/bio.html a master's thesis about Wane Marsh's influence on Mark Turner. Hope you dig it! ;)

  14. Joel
    Member

    Thanks for the heads up about Warne Marsh guys. Haven't checked him out before and is fuelling my slight Mark Turner obsession...

  15. LJM
    Member

    Smith: Thanks for sharing that concept Steve Cardenas showed you, I wouldn´t have tought it that way!
    Sandemose: Thanks for the warm welcome!
    JorgeRubiales: Great finding!

  16. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    Maybe it's the lack of sleep, but trying this concept at the piano now I hear an interesting relationship between a major lower scale (dominant arpeggio) and a minor upper scale e.g: G major key (D7) / G minor key.

    Anyone hears something over there, or I should try to sleep some more hours?

  17. eSkills
    Member

    Talking about Warne Marsh, check out his line over Confirmation from the unissued Copenhagen concert with NHØP and Alan Levitt. Starts at the second chorus, 01.17. It's out on spotify... Crazy stuff!

  18. Pascau
    Member

    Two sounds I've been working that I guess are kind of related to this:

    On an E melodic minor sound - E G B D# F# G Bb C# F#. So EminMaj7 with b5, 6, and 9 on top.
    On an A Lydian sound - A A(octave) G# C# D# F# G# C natural. So from A, up an octave, down minor second, up a fourth, and then the rest are upwards movements. 1 8 7 ( then upper octave) 3 #4 6 7 #9

    I haven't really thought of them as being octave dependent, but I've been using them like that if I understand the idea correctly. Cool sounds I thought I'd share either way.

  19. Poparad
    Member

    I was messing around with this a while ago for a tune I wrote. Part of the head uses polychords, and I was trying to figure out how to approach them to add them to the blowing section, but I never quite got the hang of it, so I just left them out of that part.

    The two voicings were as such:

    Eadd4 / Cmaj:

    (low to high)
    332204

    Abadd4 / Bmaj:

    226648 (the 22 part is tapped with the right hand)

    For improvising, I was taking two major scales and splicing them together at the middle point of the chords. So for the first one, I'd play C major in the lower end of the instrument, and around actual middle C (not written middle C), I'd switch to E major. The two scales overlap below that with an A and a B, so it makes the transition fairly smooth.

    For the second one, it would be B major on the bottom, and around the same point again at C#/Db above middle C, I'd switch to Ab major.

    It's something I'd like to experiment more with in the future, but thinking about it in terms of polychords makes it much easier to comprehend.

  20. JorgeRubiales
    Member

    I think poparad's approach would be more consonant with Kurt's findings. I have yet to play them to hear them myself ;)

  21. Colonel Trane
    Member

    Mark Turner uses a lot of polychords. I messed around with the octave dependent scales a bit when I was writing a tune with quite a few of them, they are tricky though.

  22. There's a lot of information on polychord/polychordal scales in Dave Liebman's book "A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody". Really interesting read; I checked it out a few years ago from my school library and some of the concepts in it I've found very useful. I was always curious about the interesting relationship of these "poly-scales" to spectralist harmony...once you reach the upper registers of harmonic strata you begin to diverge from the normal harmonic series and begin to get some interesting tonalities. I guess one could say it's like Giacinto Scelsi meets jazz. :p Anyways, I'm probably gonna go analyze some Kurt and Mark Turner and see if I can decipher what's going on.

    -Brandon
    http://www.brandoncolemanmusic.com

  23. Do you guys think he's using these concepts here (at 4:55)? http://youtu.be/5Eg-0Ot5-ko?t=4m55s

    Sounds like it to me. Sounds amazing. A whole new ethereal level of harmony =D

    @brandoncoleman35 "A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony and Melody" is an AMAZING book. My teacher (who is absolutely phenomenal) let me borrow it. Definitely recommended.


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