Planing A Minor Pentatonic Upon the Wholetone Scale

(35 posts)
  1. Sandemose
    Member

    Yeah, I also got that from the Italy clinic on youtube. I later made a system out of it:

    Major second = two families (six chords each); Fm, Gm, Am, Bm, C#m, D#m/ Em, F#m, G#m, Bbm, Cm, Dm
    Minor thirds = three families (four chords each); Em, Gm, Bbm, Dbm/Fm, Abm, Bm, Dm/F#m, Am, Cm, Ebm
    Major thirds = four families (three chords each); Em, G#m, Cm/Fm, Am, C#m/F#m, A#m, Dm/Gm, Bm, D#m

    Circle of fifths clockwise, and counter clockwise. I really enjoy practicing pentatonics this way, esp. major thirds. I thinks its really hard to get the lines to flow through the changes without stopping.

    Cool of you to bring this topic up, man I missed these theoretical discussions for so long.

    Best,

    Sandemose

    Admin
  2. monk
    Member

    Cool ideas. But dont you guys feel that these are nothing but meaningless patterns? I mean you could artificially create tons of such ideas.

  3. cruxtable
    Member

    true, but they're good for shedding changes.. if you can play through all that (and not just with pentatonics) you're pretty much set for playing over any minor chord in any position

  4. Sandemose
    Member

    I get you Monk. That stuff is for practicing only and for getting a structure for a specific pratice routine (in case pentatonics). Next step is to use it in a creative way. Perhaps using a cascading effect over a long Dm7 vamp on a tune like Impressions, using majorthird relationships for creating an outside sound or what ever.

    And also, some fundamentals must be maintained as well. If you want to work on your pentatonic chops, get all those positions rock solid that way of practicing will get you going, I promise.

    Sandemose

  5. Math planing can be used in many ways. I abandoned the pentatonics for a while and it inspired me to use them again. I like to blow lines with Bb, Db, E, G (minor thirds) over the first bars of rhythm changes. I generally employ these concepts whenever the harmonic rhythm becomes stagnant. I may use an array of scales from each of these tonics but generally i am more of a chord tone with chromaticism guy so hearing kurt doing it with min pents made me want to use them again. To get the lines flowing you got to really have the CAGED thing down. It is not something that is just for meaningless practice. It is just another avenue for new sounds. You have to artificially create the major scale first to be proficient at improvising with it. right?
    Some guys do triad pairs over a chord. (For a V moving to a I or i {G7alt to C or Cm} one triad pair for the G7 could be Db (b5, b7, b9) and Eb (#5, 1,#9). These two pairs are just a fraction of possibilities. But I like to start simple first to pay my dues so I chose these two major triads. Everybody can arpeggiate a major triad right? It was very conceptual at first but now it really flows. And most importantly, sounds BAD ASS.

  6. Colonel Trane
    Member

    When you use these patterns is it to create an outside sound or are they just to help you see pentatonics across the fretboard?

  7. i think of it as stretching out the harmonic monotony. i also like to use it when playing free

  8. hitdoggie
    Member

    I like this backwards in whole steps from G....you can resolve your line real nicely on that minor pentatonic up a whole step from the root of the minor chord. All this tension than a really loose inside sound

  9. Neither
    Member

    See here :
    http://somuchsound.blogspot.com/2009/07/kurts-sonic-goes-pentatonic.html
    http://somuchsound.blogspot.com/2009/08/kurts-sonic-part-two-pentatonic-revenge.html
    The problem for me is the choice of fingerings. I tried working with bergonzi's method but it takes a lot of time for me determining fingerings to play with).

  10. Sandemose
    Member

    Neither: I hear you. Ive been working on this quite hard for about a year now, using band in a box to program the changes. I think its important to have a goal. For me flow is far more important than speed. Tonelength, touch, just getting a beutiful tone going. That fingering problem give me trouble as well. Esp. when you want to play longer lines (like over 5-6 bars or something) without stoping. I quickly run out of fingers. But (almost) everytime I practice this I discover something new since if you play one bar per pentatonic scale, you´re just forced to. Maybe I will film it and put it on the tube.

    Great links by the way Neither! They helped alot!

    Best, Sandemose

  11. animitta
    Member

    Hello to everyone, i am a new user and i am glad to have found this nice forum.
    I have just finished a TuX Guitar file ( http://tuxguitar.herac.com.ar/) done upon the transcription that could be found here: http://somuchsound.blogspot.com/2009/07/kurts-sonic-goes-pentatonic.html.
    The file i did is in standard notation and tab. For now just the first part, the one starting at 39 sec of the youtube video:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin
    If someone is interested about the file just tell me how to post that, cause i don't know : ).
    All the best
    Animitta

  12. Neither
    Member

    animitta,

    Just one thing about tablature. I know it helps people who don't read music, and it restricts the fingering posibilities. But for people reading music it doesn't figure the fingerings. An exemple : take the most known pentatonic pattern, A minor.
    ----------------------------------------5--8--
    ---T------------------------------5--8--------
    ---A------------------------5--7--------------
    ---B------------------5--7--------------------
    ----------------5--7--------------------------
    ----------5--8--------------------------------

    1 4 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 4 1 4
    V

    1 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
    VI

    1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3
    VI V VI

    2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4
    IV
    For the same tab, 4 different fingerings (and you can combine them !) !
    All this 4 fingerings have an interest (it depends on the context and intention). The 1st and 2nd fingerings will be more often used by most of guitar players and the last is limited and difficult (staying in IVth position, this is not the more evident fingering but we would have to change the tab). So, it would be better for me you write the fingerings. And I would pay to have Kurt fingerings on what he plays (and/or the logic of his fingering choices) ! [Digression : I hope that Kurt will write the fingerings he uses on his guitar method (as Ted greene did). It would help a lot]. I'll write later a more consequent post about fingerings (I work hard on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd bergonzi's methods and it needs a lot of work to play it on guitar).
    That said, for sure your transcription interests all of us, I suppose... even without fingerings. Thanks to take the time to share.
    And you can publish your files as PDF on Scribd (http://www.scribd.com/), for example.
    Sandemose , thanks for your answer.
    Best

  13. Neither
    Member

    I had used some spaces to figure the fingerings just under the TAB but it has been canceled when published.
    So you must read :
    -----------------------5-8--
    -------------------5-8------
    --------------5-7-----------
    ----------5-7---------------
    -----5-7--------------------
    5-8-------------------------

    1 4 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 4 1 4
    V--------------------------

    1 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2
    VI-------------------------

    1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3 1 3
    VI--V-------------VI------

    2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4 2 4
    IV-------------------------

    And for the scribd link, you must leave the ) on the end.

  14. animitta
    Member

    Hy Neither,
    i can write the fingerings too, and i will. i just think that fingering is a really personal subject. I am not Kurt Rosenwikel and also if i try to play an exercise from him this does not mean that, also if i know his exactly fingering, that will fit to mine personality and phisical structure : ). So in my humble opinion, fingering is an help, as the tablature, but cause my hand is not like yours and not like the ones of Kurt, the best way to practice is to try to find my fingering on the same exactly notes and work hard on that. Everyone is unique on this earth : ).

    BTW: is it legal to upload a file on scribd, also if it's a original file on a Kurt's clinic?

    Just let me know about and i will post, i already opened an account there.
    Thanks
    Animitta.

  15. animitta
    Member

    Hello to everyone, i did the upload as suggested by Neither, this is the link: http://www.scribd.com/doc/21986377/rosenwinkel-s-pentatonic

    Hope it could be usefull. For sure it is just a personal interpretation, maybe still with some mistakes. i will check for errors later, now i am tired : )

    If i have infringed some copyright just let me know and i will immediatly remove.

    All the best
    Animitta.

  16. Sandemose
    Member

    I try not to spend to much time with devolping a fingeringsystem (even if it probably would help). I rather play things at slow tempos to let those aspects as fingerings fall out on their own. I rather think of positions, for me, it works out best this way:

    Gm
    -------------------------1-3--
    ---------------------1-3------
    -------------------3----------
    -------------3-5-------------
    ------1-3-5-----------------
    -1-3-------------------------

    Am
    ---------------------------3-5--
    ----------------------3-5-------
    -----------------2-5------------
    ------------2-5----------------
    -------3-5----------------------
    --3-5---------------------------

    Bm
    -------------------------2-5----
    --------------------3-5---------
    ---------------2-4--------------
    -----------24------------------
    ------2-5-----------------------
    -2-5----------------------------

    C#m
    --------------------------2-4---
    ---------------------2-5--------
    ----------------1-5-------------
    -----------2-4-----------------
    ------2-4-----------------------
    -2-4----------------------------

    Ebm
    ---------------------------2-4--
    ----------------------2-4-------
    -----------------1-3------------
    ------------1-4-----------------
    -------1-4----------------------
    --2-4---------------------------

    Fm
    -------------------------1-4----
    --------------------1-4---------
    ----------------1-3-------------
    -----------1-3-----------------
    ------1-3-----------------------
    -1-5----------------------------

    I search for halfstep shifts (probalby not slides, since I dont like that sound very much, a rather prepere my hand/fingers to avoid it, if possible), different sequences and stuff like that. I never practiced it by playing one scale up and shift on the way down etc. That happens as well when just playing/practicing it as it is. I really love the sound of this. Sounds very Kurtish, which is alot of pentatonic moves among other devices.

    best, Sandemose

  17. Neither
    Member

    Animitta,

    I agree with you : fingering is a personal thing and everyone is unique. I didn't want to say there is only one good fingering for each musical line. But there are some better than others for everybody. And I supposed you had transcribe the line with the fingering you saw Kurt used on the video (it' a very difficult thing for me, but i can see the area where he plays)... I think fingering is a matter for every guitarist. And I would be very interested seeing the ways Kurt used to finger this kind of things. 1rst, because fingerings affect the sound of musical lines. 2nd, because some kind of innovative musical lines needs sometime some particular fingerings (and Kurt is The innovative jazz guitar player !). 3rd because there is not a lot of things about it in musical literature... And Ted Greene methods gave me some invaluable benefices, especially because of the fingerings.
    I saw sometimes incomprehensible tablatures (maybe because it had no fingering allowing me to inderstand it). It doesn't mean i'll necessary copy the same fingering than Kurt. But like when a guitar professor makes a lesson, it helps when he shows solutions. Then you choose and take what interests you... That's why, anyway, your personal fingerings interests me a lot too !
    I just wanted to point fingering is more precise than tablature and one is made in order to help people reading and the other to suggest a way playing it on the fingerboard.
    Maybe you'll think i'm a kind of monomaniac ! but fingering is a great interrogation for me at this time (as sound - but I think I discovered some personal solutions for this problem after listening and seeing Kurt Rosenwinkel, Mike Moreno, or Lage Lund who helped me a lot to go where I want to go - or time feel are). I'm in a sort of musical crisis which concerns fingerings. I feel I must review some logic and habits i have with fingerings if I want to play the ideas I mentally develop.

    Thanks a lot for sharing your transcription
    best,
    Neither

  18. monk
    Member

    wow cool, im glad that you guys took my comments positively !

    Yeah, but just a side comment - my teachers always ask me something when I play something - "Does it sound good?"

    I mean, if it does, then go ahead my friends! Personally, I would prefer to transcribe some lyrical lines instead. They speak more!

    Just to add on to the ideas here, one could play combine all minor pent a minor third apart and use them over dominant, minor and major chords. Some coltrane martino ideas here

  19. Sandemose
    Member

    Monk: yeah, you´re right about that. I love the sound of the pentatonic scale and this is one way (of thousands) to explore it. Sometimes you have to take longer way around to find something completly different from what you were searching for in the first place.

    Best, Sandemose

  20. I agree its a really good way to work out an aspect of playing changes, it feels like the guitar equivalent of running a warm up lap before you play. One thing i like to do is play odd phrases, like 3 notes in A min pentatonic, then 5 notes in B min. Or 5 notes in A min then 3 in B. Or think about putting tones that are shared in both scales in key places.

  21. It's a common thing now adays which is breaking back to Trane when he was dividing the Octave semetrically. I hear not only Kurt doing this but Kreisberg and Rogers and a lot of the 'now' cats.

    This works great with anything, not just Minor pentatonic scales, and really it works super well with even just Major Scales, you are getting further away from keys, but with a structured line you can weave in and out of keys seemlessly.

    btw Hi to a lot of peeps I remember seeing from the old board... just found out KR had a site/forum.

    word

  22. Sandemose
    Member

    Hey Jake, glad to see you here again. Take care, see you around :) Best, Sandemose

  23. hitdoggie
    Member

    Cool it's Jake!

  24. Sandemose
    Member

    Me pratcing the excersise:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

    Best, Sandemose

  25. animitta
    Member

    This is a short video about the Kurt's pentatonic italian clinic:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

    I just did a fast try of the almost complete first part, the one starting on 39 secs.

    All the Best
    Animitta

  26. Sandemose
    Member

    Animitta, goodie goodie! :) That first phrase have I heard Kurt play before. In that old video (the one earlier than on the road...Kurt in DC I think?) you can hear Kurt warm up before the gig with almost that exact phrase :)

    Have you tried to play through the changes as well? I get busted all the time, loose track on where I am and get pushed around quite alot. But its a fun exercise either way.

    Best, Sandemose

  27. animitta
    Member

    Hy Sandemose : )
    I have seen your video and it's quiet a nice exercise.
    Until now i have not yet tried to play through the changes, i have just did the transcription, that i have just uploaded on youtube, and now working on the second part of the clinics.
    I will post that later.
    I don't catch exactly about wich Kurt's video you are talking about, can you send me the link?
    All the Best
    Animitta

  28. Sandemose
    Member

    Here it is:

    [+] Embed the video | Video DownloadGet the Video Plugin

  29. animitta
    Member

    Hello,
    i did the second part, standard notation and tab, of the italian clinic and uploaded that here:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/22272340/rosenwinkel-s-pentatonic-2

    I have not yet wrote the fingering cause this time i need to think about more and i am a little lazy : ).

    Maybe i will post a youtube video about this second part.

    All the Best
    Animitta


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